Front axle upgrade?? Any Point??

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Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Just thinking out loud a bit.

I have to pull the front axle to bits to replace the two axle seals and I wonder if I should take the opportunity to do some upgrading of components.

Obviously beefing up the axle sizes/greasable UJs and upgraded freewheeling hubs would do the whole thing in one go but I also wonder if say, just the universal joints could be changed to greasable - or indeed if they are a significant failure point anyway. What is the failure mode - catastrophic or increasingly noisy over a long period.

Same with upgraded axles. Do they really break in vehicles under factory gross weights or do failures come in the same category as major engine or transmission failures that can't really be guarded against. Are axle failures mostly confined to vehicles with beefed up engines or overloaded vehicles.
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Tony

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January 4, 2011 at 11:46 AM Flag Quote & Reply

David Hallandal
Member
Posts: 133
I have seen a front axle failure in normal conditions (Unloaded Duel Cab Ute), punched through the free wheeling hub destroying it as well. Speak to Paul Knott at East Coast OKAs on the best options for your needs
January 4, 2011 at 11:52 AM Flag Quote & Reply

joseph baz
Member
Posts: 331
Tony ,for what is worth, i will replace uni's while you have it all out,usually upon uni failure and having the axle end flapping around will damage the inner axle seals,35 splines outer axles is a good upgrade as they're renown to fail even in lighter vehicles.
Cheers,Joe
January 4, 2011 at 11:58 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Peter 334
Member
Posts: 118
I am in the middle of a front diff rebuild new unis new seals and all bearings not going to worry about changing the axels just going to replace the unis with greaseable type, the seals on the outer were destroyed and they let in a lot of dirt into the diff housing, having fun all the time as i get to something its not good!
January 4, 2011 at 8:33 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Peter, I guess there is good design involved in having a weak link in any chain. At least then you know it is the short stubs that break instead of the inner axle or diff.

Are the non-greasable unis a failure point? Any experiences.

Actually I wasn't very impressed with a little bit of mud wrecking the axle seals. Even less impressive to read the Dana axle service sheets - go wading and every day remove the diff cover and the outer hub to check for water. Downtime would exceed the uptime.
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Tony

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January 4, 2011 at 9:05 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Aussie Bight Expeditions
Member
Posts: 109
Hi Everyone
Paul actually has very good seals for the outer axles on the inner shaft ( I always silicon seal the free wheelings hubs, by doing the o-ring and the bolts) that are different from the Dana ones and I now use marine grade i.e. water proof grease and now have reduced front bearing failure due to submersing the front axle in the ocean. The other thing that can be done is too put a true water proof seal as that Trailer kits have for boats and that stops the water being sucked into the diff.

The interesting I have found is that sea water does not destroy the viscosity of the water as fresh water does. The sea water turns the oil into a cream and does not even rust the bearings. I am planning to put a 2 psi air pressure into my front diff, that I can turn on and off to stop any water getting into the diff, as I do allot of wading in various waters. Will have to have a water trap in line to make sure that it does not condense though.

With regard to mud Paul new seals although i have been using them for 4 years really solve the mud issue but I do maintenance on them during beach season every 5,000 kms just for safety reasons with passengers on board.

Grease able unis are always the best solution for the front drive as it keeps out the dust and replaces the water affected grease, once again I use marine grade.

Happy motoring
ABE TONY
Esperance
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January 4, 2011 at 11:09 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Alister McBride
Member
Posts: 97
As i understand it, there's three main problems with the diffs:
- The Dana 70 rear runs the main bearings in the housing,
- The 60 front has two main problems, the C-Ends are too small (you can see this on some oka's where the camber on the front wheels is much more negative than from factory) and the outer axles should have been 35 spline... although as mentioned it's sometimes best to have a 'fuse' somewhere in the system.

As far as seals go, is there any difference between any of that dana range? if not the only option to improve on that is to use enclosed knuckles which reduce turning circle... pro's and con's everywhere we look!
Some industrious people have put 80's under front and rear, some would argue they're an overkill and reduce ground clearance and possibly decrease fuel economy by a bees wadga but others would say the reliability and indestructability (aspecially for tour operators) is essential. Once again pro's and con's...

Another option which i haven't heard anybody talk about is putting unimog 416 or 406 high speed portal axles under it. Indestructable, high clearance, excellent turning circle, a lot of work and modifications but if you're going to get engineers cert's for 80's you may as well go the next step... they're cheaper too! (plus the work to do the job though...).

All up, plenty of people (big and small) have been running upgraded 60 fronts and 70 rears for a very long time with no problems so that might be the easiest and quickest option... ie C-end and outer axle upgrade etc and add in there a bit of regular maintenance too.
January 4, 2011 at 11:29 PM Flag Quote & Reply

joseph baz
Member
Posts: 331
To be totally blunt,I personally think the Dana 60 is a poor design,the axle should have been supported at the end of the housing with a bush and a seal to stop all the mud and water ingresing the housing,the after thought of the mining specs bush/seal is not a good solution as water allways get in and can't escape instead of just relying on a needle bearing with another poorly designed seal, it is not what you expect from a manufacturer the size of DANA-SPICER the good bit is the open knuckle and the access to grease uni's(if you have the greasable type).
If I remember correctly the Unimog prop shafts turn the opposite way,also with the width of the OKA you don't want to introduce another 100mm of overall height,BTW if you are fond of portal axles(I am) there is a mob in the US who manufactures them for Dana 60, If you guys have a look at Paul's 80's they are a really good design with the increased track width and the bolted on rear spindles(a la Land rover),it is a real good set up and is all made locally.cheers,Joe
January 5, 2011 at 12:11 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Peter 334
Member
Posts: 118
so the seals that are in the front diff is as good as it gets , surely there must be a better seal to suit, the dirt factor must be a concern if the seal fails completely in travel ,the air pressurizing the housing sounds a good idea, as i am on limited budget i will stick with the same old same old !
January 5, 2011 at 8:04 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
I'm reluctantly accepting that maybe the seals on an 17YO vehicle (that has done only 100000km) might be on their last legs. Have replaced rear diff pinion seal and now the both front axle seals so I guess all the others will go the same way.
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Tony

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January 5, 2011 at 8:20 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Aussie Bight Expeditions
Member
Posts: 109
Just a thought.

I find with all my seals whether they are new or old that (in my case as the beach sand is so fine here) I used to replace the seals thinking that they were worn out, when they started to leak. I was away on a trip on the Australian Bight and had transfer seal leak and the rear diff quite badly. I tried to blow the dirt away and clean them, so the seals would last, I eventually sprayed them with a cheap degreaser that I carry, Mechanic suggested that as he did training in the Army and said they used that trick quite often, and then blew them, the leak stopped. I have found this to happen on both my OKAS quite often here, after doing my beach tours. I now frequently spray all the exposed seals and wash with hose (water) and have not in the last 2 years had to do my seals.

However very old seals just get hard with the heat and then do not seal anyway. I also now use Vition seals, if I can source them, more expensive by up 3 x the price but in my case have found them to be justified.

Happy motoring
TONY
ABE Esperance
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January 5, 2011 at 10:21 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Peter 334
Member
Posts: 118
these vition seals you talk about Aussie bigh do you have a part no, so to see if i can sorce out the item in my area ,i dont want to be pulling the front end to pieces after every time i take it out !
January 6, 2011 at 8:26 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Aussie Bight Expeditions
Member
Posts: 109
Peter
I am in the process of shifting my operation to melbourne and at the moment I am in Esperance and most of my records are in melbourne at this stage. I have just had my steering unit and pitman arm remade in Perth, Lost all the chrome off the shaft and had to get it redone to seal ( unusual but it just pealed off ), it will be here friday I hope and I am planning to leave here Esperance on Sunday or Monday and will have a look at my records when I get to my new place in Mornington, as I took all that stuff over 8 weeks ago.

Usually all I do is take the seal that I need into the local bearing agent ( I was one for years ) and he just orders them as Vition. I have only ever bothered to do the ones on the Rockwell Transfer case and the differential input shafts as there is no need for the axle ones as the do not run the same temperatures. The inner axle seals for the differential you can get off Paul and also the seals that he sells on the Cone for the seal next to Needle roller,are better than originally on the OKA as he had them made and the have a wear plate and recessed seal area that eliminates the problem of the water and dust getting in so easily.

I have been measuring the temps of the Rockwell transfer, that is normally around 58 C and the gearbox on mine runs around 68 C. Same oil but run 25% Morey's in the transfer which quietens it down and has also has reduced the temp. Wheel bearings out of interest run @ 35 C and up to 65 C depending how hot the road is, the lower temp is the normal temp though.

I do have some seals here and will see what I have as I carry quite a few all the time so will list what I have here tomorrow in vition numbers.

Hope that helps for now
Regards to you all
ABE Tony
Esperance
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January 7, 2011 at 1:13 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Peter 334
Member
Posts: 118
Working on something at the moment to see if there is any way to be able to support the front axels at the area where the axel leaves the diff housing ,going to see if i can get a seal to suit the idea if it works i will be happy, every thing seems to pan out at the moment .
January 8, 2011 at 8:06 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Aussie Bight Expeditions
Member
Posts: 109
From the engineers that I have spoken to about this one does not have to support the axles as there is no need to.

If you want to get a good seal on that section all you have to do is ring
Solid Axle Industries.
7/490 Frankston Dandenong Road.
Carrum Downs
Victoria
Australia 3201

Phone +613.9786.0056
Fax +613.9786.0057

He does the 8o series axles for the OKA conversion, as the makes everything on site and tried to get OKA to use them for the OKA but they went there own way.

He makes a ring that goes into the housing and uses the right seal, same as on the boat trailer ones. All one has to do is knock in the ring and the seal grabs the shaft and with the lubrication, water proof grease that one applies to the inner seal surface and the ring, one solves the problem, no more water gets in and it keeps the sand and gravel out.

I think the website is www.solidaxle.com

He is worth talking to as he does allot of neat conversions to all Dana axles and systems for OKA'S and Jeeps in particular as they are built for the other camber and the right hand conversion they do in the states actually makes them dangers to drive here as they get speed wobbles which he has sorted and is a cheap fix.

Regards
Aussie Bight Expeditions
ABE TONY
Esperance
www.aussiebight.com


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January 8, 2011 at 11:27 PM Flag Quote & Reply

joseph baz
Member
Posts: 331
Tony, I think you should fire the engineer,As far as Solid goes,Danny is a really good innovative guy and all the gear that I sought from his company is superb but we are dealing with 15-20 year old diff housing that at some stage someone will have neglected a uni replacement and had the inner axle banging against the housing,the idea behind it is brilliant,but to do it right we should machine the housing tube to a clean end true surface and then fit the supporting ring with an incorporated seal
cheers,Joe
January 9, 2011 at 12:19 AM Flag Quote & Reply

joseph baz
Member
Posts: 331
I forgot,most of the OKA gear was designed by Paul Nott and Danny manufacturers under his spects, I thnk is only fair that people go though Paul as he had put an enourmous amount of time into anything OKA and at the end of the day no one want to work for nothing........that's my 3.5 bits(metric)
Cheers,Joe
January 9, 2011 at 12:32 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
"He makes a ring that goes into the housing and uses the right seal, same as on the boat trailer ones. All one has to do is knock in the ring and the seal grabs the shaft and with the lubrication, water proof grease that one applies to the inner seal surface and the ring, one solves the problem, no more water gets in and it keeps the sand and gravel out."

Which end of the tube are you talking about - diff end or wheel end?

If wheel end, what about the mine modification outer seals and support ring
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Tony

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January 9, 2011 at 8:39 AM Flag Quote & Reply

joseph baz
Member
Posts: 331
It's at the wheel end of the diff housing,the mining modification never been 100% efficient at doing both jobs (supporting and sealing) as allows water to get in and can't drain out.
cheers,Joe
January 9, 2011 at 9:39 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Aussie Bight Expeditions
Member
Posts: 109
The End I am talking about is the same place as the military seals go. I have them in one of mine and have been in there for many years and all they do is make it hard to get the axle back out and they retain the sand behind the seal when the very fine sand gets in. It has on mine as the sand acts as a very good grind paste.

If any one uses the ring and caravan seal method you have keep the sideways movement to the absolute minimum as if you do not then the seal unit will open up and let the water and sand in.

Joe I know both the guys well and happen to buy off both and will continue to buy off them and all the other suppliers that I have found along the way too. I am sure they use some of the same suppliers as I do and the same with Robin Wade that I use as well. I spend allot of time chasing on the internet trying to find new deals. I ran a spare parts business for many years and we sold machinery and car parts as well as being a bearing agent. I now use contacts from those years, to source parts as well. I have to make a profit out of my business as well, that means keeping my costs down, to do this I buy from many suppliers and will continue to do so.

With machining yes, if it is damaged but I would find it hard to see that it would bang around the tube and if it has, then you might have more trouble than that to fix with the differential as well.

I am not even going to comment on the Engineer, as I do not think you understand what / where I was talking about.

Bye
ABE TONY
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January 9, 2011 at 9:57 AM


Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Sounds like a good mod would be to weld a hose fitting on the inboard end of the tube and use it to flush the tube out every time you finish any muddy conditions. If you can't stop it getting in, then at least make it easy to get out.

And since I haven't figured an easy way to get the cover of the transmission brake off without removing other stiuff, maybe that is another place for a permanent flushing system.
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Tony

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January 9, 2011 at 11:23 AM