Perth to Alice Jan 2018

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20 Mar 2018 07:01 - 24 Mar 2018 06:02 #41 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Perth to Alice Jan 2018

Holmz wrote: Y
I am running Redline 75w/90 in the diff (I think... 75w???).
And I heard overfilling the diff is not a bad idea.


Holmz, overfilling the diffs isn't easy on an Oka since excess will spill out of the filler hole. When checking diff oil it's worth checking on the axle breather pipes which can get get blocked. Then when the oil gets hot (diffs can get very hot) it can squeeze out around the seals.

Oil running down inside the rear tyres is a sign of hub seal problems but it can also run down via the brake pads rendering them less effective. A severe leak could also reduce the amount of oil available to the diff so top up regularly until the leak is fixed. Replacing rear hub seals is a bit easier that the front since the bearing lock nuts are more accessible and oil is better to deal with than grease, but the same principles applies, except no need to grease the bearings, just oil them well.



However oil running down the inside of the front tyres is not the hub seal, it's the axle inner diff seal next to the differential. That's a much bigger job to fix, requiring removal of the diff centre. One solution is to slightly underfill the front diff (since it's fitted upside down compared to the rear) which will reduce the amount of the leak. And also check the breather pipe. However, on the plus side, oil from front diff seal leaks can't get on the brake pads so easily.

A couple of pics of the front axle breather connection. I had to clean this out in the Plumridge Lakes NP in WA. The connection seems to be a push fit into the axle housing. Might have had an O ring originally but gasket sealant keeps it in place.




David and Janet Ribbans - Oka 148
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Last Edit: 24 Mar 2018 06:02 by dandjcr.
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23 Mar 2018 23:27 - 23 Mar 2018 23:31 #42 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Perth to Alice Jan 2018
Well I got it back tonight...
Left at ~6:30 with a stop at Coles for the co-driver to pick up some smokes.
~4:45 with a fuel, bacon and egg toast is and coffee stop.
Started on the wrenches at 11:15.
Spinal on, etc.

Moved the RHS ~2: (I think).
Step off wheel nuts loosened, jacks etc.
Brake,calliper off, etc... hub off.
Looks like the RHS was showing signs of failing too, so I put a new outside bearing in.
(Packed it with redline cv2)
Back together, and packed up the car and tool @4:00.
Then hand cleaning, dip in the pool, fuel and water and home ~11PM.

Good to be home.
Many thanks to 1/2 dozen of you that helped with techicnical, moral support, parts, etc.
Last Edit: 23 Mar 2018 23:31 by Holmz.

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24 Mar 2018 05:43 - 24 Mar 2018 06:06 #43 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Perth to Alice Jan 2018
Well done Holmz, glad you and your Oka made it home OK.

Experiences, good or bad, are all valuable and never wasted.

How were your hub temperatures along the way?

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Last Edit: 24 Mar 2018 06:06 by dandjcr.

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24 Mar 2018 12:55 #44 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Perth to Alice Jan 2018

dandjcr wrote: Well done Holmz, glad you and your Oka made it home OK.

Experiences, good or bad, are all valuable and never wasted.

How were your hub temperatures along the way?


In the heat of the day...
LF: 42
RF: 40
LR: 53
RR: 52

At night...
LF: 34
RF: 32
LR/RR: 43

So I learned a few things:

0) Lobo mentioned an IR measurement and to religiously look at hub temps.
(Making it my OKA religion)

1) Wheel bearing packing and bearing tight adjustment
Bearings never to be full saturated. (I got some deal from SupaCheap that is super cheap and I will bin it.)
Grease should as fully as possible fill the void between the bearings.
I got a need injector and attched that to the grease gun, and now cannot get it off the Zerk-female... l'll probably just get another grease gun... and try to find a better female-Zerk end.

2) I need to carry the 9/64 Allen to get the warn locking hub off. I should have considered using a torx jammed in.

3) when in doubt, stop, make a cuppa and think things through (refer to #2)
3B) (It is nice to have a few people available to consult with)

4) Check that the sat-phone 12V cord is not broken (so that 3 and 3B can be accomplished).

5) the overalls/coveralls I picked up seemed a bit of an extravagance.
They come in handy for keeping the regular clothing cleaner.

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24 Mar 2018 13:33 - 24 Mar 2018 13:40 #45 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Perth to Alice Jan 2018
Holmz, I reckon No 3 is the best advice. Stop, pause and think before acting (unless it's a medical emergency, and even then DRABCD).

Hub temps seem fine to me so all looks OK.

The reason for filling/packing the front bearings is not so much for lubrication, it's so if you enter cold water, the sudden temperature change/contraction of air inside the hub can't suck in as much water (via the FWHs or seals), which will remain there and eventually stuff the bearings (brown muddy grease). I know.

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Last Edit: 24 Mar 2018 13:40 by dandjcr.

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24 Mar 2018 16:56 - 24 Mar 2018 16:58 #46 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Perth to Alice Jan 2018

dandjcr wrote: Holmz, I reckon No 3 is the best advice. Stop, pause and think before acting (unless it's a medical emergency, and even then DRABCD).

Hub temps seem fine to me so all looks OK.

The reason for filling/packing the front bearings is not so much for lubrication, it's so if you enter cold water, the sudden temperature change/contraction of air inside the hub can't suck in as much water (via the FWHs or seals), which will remain there and eventually stuff the bearings (brown muddy grease). I know.


Not to be overly a contrarian, but I disagree (of course I have no expertise, and I know it ;). )

I haven't googled it, (or even better... spoken to an expert)... but I believe that another function of grease is to aid in thermal conductivity(??).
However maybe that is my cooking skills being channeled? The olive oil helps to couple the heat of the pan into the food - if we ignore flavour etc.

In relation to your contraction and water ingress reasoning... filling the volume with grease will result in a lower volume of air, which has a much higher thermal expansion compared to grease. So there will be less volume trying to such in water, but whether it is the whole chamber or just a small amount, it will still suck it in with the same pulling force... just it is will try to suck in less as any water or air enters... tapering the suction force quicker and pulling less in.

I dunno... ^these^ are more of an opening discussion... rather than a statement of fact.

Basically I did not consider the cost of the grease, but put it into the hub like it was a disposable asset.



I hate to seem naive... but hate worse to be ignorant on purpose,., can you please expand the acronym DRABCD?
Last Edit: 24 Mar 2018 16:58 by Holmz.

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24 Mar 2018 17:48 #47 by mort
mort replied the topic: Perth to Alice Jan 2018
Hi Holmz and anyone else,
Good practice is if you are going for a water crossing is not to just plow in after a long hot drive but to stop check the water for obsticales and depth etc then have a coffee, after this time your diff's gearbox and transfer case ets is cool and shouldnt suck in water.
Martyn

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24 Mar 2018 20:13 - 24 Mar 2018 20:59 #48 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Perth to Alice Jan 2018

Holmz wrote: can you please expand the acronym DRABCD?


Sorry, not trying to be a smart arse, it's a sequence of First Aid actions in a medical emergency for someone who is unconscious or injured, The details are here . An S (for send for help) has been recently added.

Danger, Response, Send, Airways, Breathing, Circulation/CPR, Defibrillation.

When you're remote from help as we often have been, knowing what to do maybe a life saver. For the same reason, snake bite treatment would be useful to know too.


David and Janet Ribbans - Oka 148
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27 Mar 2018 13:28 #49 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: Perth to Alice Jan 2018

Holmz wrote:

So I learned a few things:

..................... religiously look at hub temps. (Making it my OKA religion)


IMO a very good habit to get into as hub temps can give early indication of wheel bearing failure or looseness (especially on front LHS) or a dragging or cocked disc brake pad. I have got into the habit of doing a vehicle 'walk around' when stopping just looking for anything out of place and placing my hand on the wheel hubs for a quick check of hub temps. It doesn't take long to get a feel for something 'not quite right'.

.................... Wheel bearing packing and bearing tight adjustment
Bearings never to be full saturated. (I got some deal from SupaCheap that is super cheap and I will bin it.)


I'm not quite sure what you mean here ? Are you suggesting not to fully pack wheel bearings prior to fitting and a wheel bearing grease packing tool ?

Grease should as fully as possible fill the void between the bearings.

If you're referring to packing the void in the hub between the inner and outer bearings I've often wondered about this. It's been accepted practice for many years to do this but I can't see any obvious benefit though I continue to do this out of habit. The only theoretical benefit I can see is that if the grease 'melts' or is thrown out of the bearing the bearing is surrounded by grease that can be forced back into the bearing by centrifugal force as the hub rotates keeping it properly lubricated.

I got a need injector and attched that to the grease gun, and now cannot get it off the Zerk-female... l'll probably just get another grease gun... and try to find a better female-Zerk end.

I had to look up what a 'Zerk' was as this is not a term I was familiar with, ha ha ............... obviously a North American term for grease nipple :) Female 'Zerk' fittings that I am familiar with usually unscrew and come apart which allows access to the internal collets that grab the grease nipple. This should hopefully allow the needle fitting to be released.

2)................... carry the 9/64 Allen to get the warn locking hub off. I should have considered using a torx jammed in.

Interesting that your Oka FWH bolts have Allen heads. The originals on #413 had T15? Torz heads as did the replacements I fitted later after a FWH failure 'up north'. I did manage to obtain a Landcruiser FWH in Kununurra which had identical bolts to the Oka and these had Allen heads of similar size. Unfortunately I didn't notice this at the time of my temp repair and when I later removed the hub to repair properly I managed to 'round out' these bolt heads. Unfortunately, to remove the FWH I had to cut through its outer alloy case with a 1mm disc to cut the hardened bolts. An expensive exercise. The replacement FWH repair kit I carry as spares also has Torz bolts. Certainly worth checking to make sure all are the same.
An ongoing issue I have is that these bolts become loose after several thousand K's and need re-tightening, not a major issue but something else to keep on top of. I keep a T15 Torz screwdriver under the drivers seat specifically for this purpose.

3).................... when in doubt, stop, make a cuppa and think things through (refer to #2)
3B) (It is nice to have a few people available to consult with)


"Act in haste, repent at leisure" :)

4) .................... Check that the sat-phone 12V cord is not broken (so that 3 and 3B can be accomplished).

You're not the first to be caught on this one :(, we now carry both the DC and AC chargers for our electronic devices along with a small pure sine wave inverter as a 'plan b' should one be needed.

5) the overalls/coveralls I picked up seemed a bit of an extravagance.
They come in handy for keeping the regular clothing cleaner.


Fortunately strong paper disposable overalls are often available from your friendly employer or industrial supplies store, are cheap, take little room and can be discarded or used as a fire lighter when diesel/oil/grease soaked and smelly :)

On a more general note it's unfortunate that you had these problems and I guess you've learned the hard way that checking wheel bearings before an outback journey is a good idea. It took me a while to learn this lesson when we first got the Oka.
It's been my experience that the Oka is more prone to front wheel bearing failure than other 4WD's if they are not regularly checked.

We do a 10-15,000 Km outback trip each year and have done so since we first bought the Oka and after some early wheel bearing failures, typically the inner bearing due to water/dirt ingress, have come up with the following maintenance regime. As part of our post trip 'clean up' I remove the front wheels/hub/wheel bearings clean, re pack, re-install and adjust. Prior to the next years outback trip I'd jack up and rotate/rock the front wheels looking for any issues and re-adjust if necessary. The current front wheel bearings are approx. 100,000 Km/6 years old and are 'as good as new' which IMO is pretty good considering what they've been through. For an Oka that spends more time on good roads/tracks this level of maintenance is probably over the top but for a vehicle that does the majority of its Km's in outback conditions probably a good idea.

You're right about the difficulty in bending the front hub nut locking tab outwards, it's a real bugger of a job and definitely a learned knack. I use a 100mm X 6mm soft bolt with half of one side of the head ground back to the shank and slide the ground edge along the inside of the hub to place the remaining (un-ground) side of the head behind the tab to be pulled forward. I then grab the threaded shank of the bolt with a large pair of bull nose pliers and lever the bolt outwards by resting the pliers on the outer edge of the hub. It's only necessary to move the tab a couple of millimetres outward then a large screwdriver/tyre lever etc. can be used to finish the job.
I considered using the stage 8 mechanism as it's a lot easier but stayed with the original KISS system as it seemed more robust to me.

Happy Oka'ing :)

Deano :)

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27 Mar 2018 16:35 - 27 Mar 2018 16:43 #50 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Perth to Alice Jan 2018
.................... Wheel bearing packing and bearing tight adjustment
Bearings NEEDS TO BE be full saturated. (I got some deal from SupaCheap that is super cheap and I will bin it.)


I'm not quite sure what you mean here ? Are you suggesting not to fully pack wheel bearings prior to fitting and a wheel bearing grease packing tool ?
I think it twas a typo - I got a super cheap packing job which was only for smaller bearings.
The needle injector was to fill the void more, but that didn't work out too well.


Grease should as fully as possible fill the void between the bearings.
Agree.

If you're referring to packing the void in the hub between the inner and outer bearings I've often wondered about this. It's been accepted practice for many years to do this but I can't see any obvious benefit though I continue to do this out of habit. The only theoretical benefit I can see is that if the grease 'melts' or is thrown out of the bearing the bearing is surrounded by grease that can be forced back into the bearing by centrifugal force as the hub rotates keeping it properly lubricated.
And maybe to displace air?


I got a needle injector and attched that to the grease gun, and now cannot get it off the Zerk-female... l'll probably just get another grease gun... and try to find a better female-Zerk end.

I had to look up what a 'Zerk' was as this is not a term I was familiar with, ha ha ............... obviously a North American term for grease nipple :) Female 'Zerk' fittings that I am familiar with usually unscrew and come apart which allows access to the internal collets that grab the grease nipple. This should hopefully allow the needle fitting to be released.
I always thought that the grease nipple was called the Zerk fitting? Maybe the regionally good Christian upbringing avoided using the common term?[/u]

2)................... carry the 9/64 Allen to get the warn locking hub off. I should have considered using a torx jammed in.

...
An ongoing issue I have is that these bolts become loose after several thousand K's and need re-tightening, not a major issue but something else to keep on top of. I keep a T15 Torz screwdriver under the drivers seat specifically for this purpose.
I used locktite on the calliper button screw that holds in the wedge. The low strength may be worth a try? - or longer headed ones with a safety wire?
...

4) .................... Check that the sat-phone 12V cord is not broken (so that 3 and 3B can be accomplished).

You're not the first to be caught on this one :(, we now carry both the DC and AC chargers for our electronic devices along with a small pure sine wave inverter as a 'plan b' should one be needed.
I keep thinking about inverters or a genset.

...
Fortunately strong paper disposable overalls are often available from your friendly employer or industrial supplies store, are cheap, take little room and can be discarded or used as a fire lighter when diesel/oil/grease soaked and smelly :)
I have a 20 pack in the garage that look like HAZMAT or some apocalyptic or CSI gear, whereas the one's that Dean peddles look stylish (However her ladyship doesn't exactly concur).

...
It's been my experience that the Oka is more prone to front wheel bearing failure than other 4WD's if they are not regularly checked.
My experience too.
The fact that it was a new bearing on a new spindle was just a bonus.


...
...
I considered using the stage 8 mechanism as it's a lot easier but stayed with the original KISS system as it seemed more robust to me.
I like the stage-8, however it is possible to put the circlip in the wrong slot.
Last Edit: 27 Mar 2018 16:43 by Holmz.

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27 Mar 2018 19:33 - 27 Mar 2018 19:39 #51 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: Perth to Alice Jan 2018
- The needle injector was to fill the void more, but that didn't work out too well.


Grease should as fully as possible fill the void between the bearings ............... maybe to displace air?.

As I said, not real sure about this but to displace air ? a wheel hub is a pretty basic piece of engineering that's been around since horse and cart days. I doubt that its engineering is that sophisticated.

................. An ongoing issue I have is that these bolts become loose after several thousand K's and need re-tightening, not a major issue but something else to keep on top of. I keep a T15 Torz screwdriver under the drivers seat specifically for this purpose.......

I used locktite on the calliper button screw that holds in the wedge. The low strength may be worth a try? - or longer headed ones with a safety wire?

Talking at crossed purposes here. I was referring to the six hardened screws that hold the FWH assembly together NOT the brake calliper wedge retaining screw.
Losing a brake calliper wedge/spring and damage to the retaining screw is probably the most common problem I've found with the corrugated road outback travel we do. The scenario is this - the wedge retaining spring rattles and falls out due to vibration and the wedge wears a flat on the retaining screw shank and it also drops out. If you're really out of luck and don't pick up the resulting 'clunk' when you use the brakes (as the caliper moves about) and have 19.5" rims there is sufficient room for the calliper to come adrift from its mount and swing about on the end of the brake line. The brake pads also fall out and are left back down the track with the wedge and spring. :(
I've lost count of the number of springs and wedges I've lost along with damaged retaining screws but this situation can be avoided with a large dollop of silicon around the retaining spring which stops it rattling and falling out and starting the whole chain of events. Checking the brake calliper wedges is something I do every morning when travelling in rough country.

I keep thinking about inverters or a genset.

You don't need to go mad here the power required to run a laptop/camera charger and/or a small TV is small. A suitable inverter can plug directly into the cigarette lighter and is typically around the size of a novel. Ours is around 120 watts (from memory) and cost about $120. A generator for this is way overkill.

.......... I like the stage-8, however it is possible to put the circlip in the wrong slot.

Oops :( Reminds me of the time I filled my Landrover transfer case with its own oil PLUS the oil that was supposed to go in the gearbox. Got about 100 Km ................. :(
What do they say about mistakes ................... "the only people that don't make them are people that don't do anything" , or something like that.

Deano :)
Last Edit: 27 Mar 2018 19:39 by Dean and Kaye Howells.

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27 Mar 2018 21:12 #52 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Perth to Alice Jan 2018

Dean and Kaye Howells wrote: - The needle injector was to fill the void more, but that didn't work out too well.


Grease should as fully as possible fill the void between the bearings ............... maybe to displace air?.

As I said, not real sure about this but to displace air ? a wheel hub is a pretty basic piece of engineering that's been around since horse and cart days. I doubt that its engineering is that sophisticated.
...


Well I put it with a question mark there, and I freely admitted that I am no expert.
The reasoning was that the talk about air getting sucked in from the hot parts getting cold would be sucked in from air pressure dropping. There's is nothing between the inner and outer bearing to lubricate... so running in under centrifugal force would be reasonable too.

Dean and Kaye Howells wrote: ...
I used locktite on the calliper button screw that holds in the wedge. The low strength may be worth a try? - or longer headed ones with a safety wire?

Talking at crossed purposes here. I was referring to the six hardened screws that hold the FWH assembly together NOT the brake calliper wedge retaining screw.
Losing a brake calliper wedge/spring and damage to the retaining screw is probably the most common problem I've found with the corrugated road outback travel we do. The scenario is this - the wedge retaining spring rattles and falls out due to vibration and the wedge wears a flat on the retaining screw shank and it also drops out. If you're really out of luck and don't pick up the resulting 'clunk' when you use the brakes (as the caliper moves about) and have 19.5" rims there is sufficient room for the calliper to come adrift from its mount and swing about on the end of the brake line. The brake pads also fall out and are left back down the track with the wedge and spring. :(
I've lost count of the number of springs and wedges I've lost along with damaged retaining screws but this situation can be avoided with a large dollop of silicon around the retaining spring which stops it rattling and falling out and starting the whole chain of events. Checking the brake calliper wedges is something I do every morning when travelling in rough country.
...


Yeah I was talking about the warn bolts.
Are you referring to the ones that hold the spindle and calliper mount to the outer C?
Seems llike I either need to check them often, or locktite, or safety wire them, or some other solution.
It did seem like 6 small bolts compared to the 8 lug nuts which are also on a similar or larger bolt circle??

Thanks for the warning- just want to make sure I have the right ones!

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28 Mar 2018 04:55 #53 by Peter and Sandra OKA 374
Peter and Sandra OKA 374 replied the topic: Perth to Alice Jan 2018
Rather than locktite on the FWH retaining screws I use a little bit of silicon gasket stuff under the head as it is tightened, does two things, seals it as the supplied wee little O rings usually are stuffed after one use and also stops the screw undoing once the silicon goes off. The retaining screws can be easily undone with the allen key when the time comes without the chance of breaking the them.
I've never had any problems with 374 in the wheel bearing or brake department, that is probably due to it only just this month clocking up 160,000km in 21 years, never mind the regular servicing it had when in the RAAF.

OKA 374 LT Van, converted to camper/motorhome,
400ah Lithiums, 1100w solar, diesel cooking heating and HWS,
Cummins 6BT, Allison 6 speed auto, Nissan transfer.
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