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29 Nov 2014 09:11 #21 by TH
TH replied the topic: Electric Fan

Dean and Kaye Howells wrote:

TH wrote: ................................. I'd be surprised if it takes more than 2hp to circulate the system. So the electrical requiements, in theory, shouldn't be excessive.


Hi Tony, 2 HP is the equivalent of approx. 1500 watts or 125 amps on a 12 volt system. This is the theoretical 'best case' value assuming no losses in generating the 2 HP at all.

This figure represents a massive additional load on the vehicles electrical system. OKA 413 has a Bosch 1280, 12 volt 80 amp alternator fitted. This figure (125 amp) represents a more than 50% overload of its maximum rating and does not take into account any other electrical load on the system.

This is why I am concerned about stress on the vehicle electrical system when using an electric fan/pump setup.

If indeed 2 HP is a realistic figure then an alternator with a minimum rating of at least 200 amps (250 would be better) would be needed. This would require a substantial upgrade of mounting, cabling and drive (dual belts minimum) and would be quite costly. There would IMO need to be some pretty significant comparative advantages to change to a system such as this.

Deano :)


The mechanical pump is likely the most efficient method of cooling in terms of power consumption but it's hardly an efficient method of cooling. I have an intercooler in the way that takes up the entire tunnel and I need to improve the bog cooling system so I can cruise to remote summer fishing spots in comfort instead of at 1am.

Cheers, Tony
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29 Nov 2014 16:19 #22 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: Electric Fan
[quote="TH" post=8573
...................................... I have an intercooler in the way that takes up the entire tunnel and I need to improve the bog cooling system so I can cruise to remote summer fishing spots in comfort instead of at 1am.[/quote]

The standard LT OKA cooling system in good condition has no problem keeping the engine cool even in the most adverse conditions. The XT cooling system however has a smaller radiator which is an absolute mongrel to get at and is in my opinion not as good a cooling system as the LT.

Here's a couple of scenarios.

1/. Restricting the air flow with an intercooler radiator in the tunnel may push the system 'over the edge' and this could be your problem.

2/. Another scenario could be that the standard cooling system is not in good condition and just coping and the additional air restriction of the intercooler radiator is 'the straw that broke the camels back'.

3/. Or it could be that there is no problem and the temperature gauge is 'telling Porkies' leading you to believe that there is a problem.

Whichever it is I still reckon it's a good idea to relocate the intercooler radiator if possible.

What do you have Tony air-air or coolant-air ?

OKA Pete's black OKA has an air-air system with the intercooler radiator mounted vertically above the front axle and behind the 'bash plate' which has suitable air holes in it. Looks to be a good system, I'll see if I can get some pictures if this is what you have.

I've a coolant-air intercooler to fit to #413 and I'm looking at locating the intercooler radiator (with fan) at an angle on the bull bar infill plate (with suitable air holes) under the passenger side door entry.


Deano :)

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29 Nov 2014 17:13 #23 by Peter and Sandra OKA 374
Peter and Sandra OKA 374 replied the topic: Electric Fan
On our previous touring vehicle and ex USAF ex Desert Storm Humvee the cooling system for the 6.2l V8 diesel was huge, the radiator was approx 600mm square and 100mm thick with four rows of tubes each 10mm diameter (you could see through them when the top and bottom tanks were off). The whole system held 27 litres of coolant and the cooling fan which was a huge 12 bladed job which was either on or off, no thermo coupling it had a seperate temp sensor in the engine which caused a hydraulic clutch to lock which them drove the fan. Made a huge noise when locked and would sometimes make the auto kick down a gear if climbing a hill the load increase was so great. Most of the time on a typical summers day the fan would only lock up for approx a couple of minutes about every 15 mins at expressway speeds, a hill would sometimes increase the engine temp enough to lock it but most of the time the engine was kept cool by just slipstream airflow through the radiator. This caused problem when we fitted a/c as there wasn't enough airflow most of the time to cool the a/c condenser so we fitted two electric fans to push air through the condenser and then the radiator.
Initial thoughts were that the engine driven fan would cycle less. That wasn't the case even when the two thermo fans were running the engine fan cycled more which meant the a/c worked better but with increased noise from the engine fan being locked for longer. Remove the fans entirely and the engine fan cycled as per normal even with the condenser in the airflow. So it would appear that the two fans decreased the natural airflow though the radiator and even when operating they were still impeding airflow through the radiator.
The electic fans weren't shrouded but mounted in front of the condenser which took up approx 60% of the radiators surface area.
Other Humvee owners went down the "remove the engine driven fan and replace with electric fans" route and it was a total failure even with the fans running constantly they couldn't keep the system cool. The radiator setup was similar in some ways to the Oka with the radiator at the front of a duct with the engine fan at the back except the radiator was sitting at about a 45 degree angle top backwards due to the low bonnet profile.

OKA 374 LT Van, converted to camper/motorhome,
400ah Lithiums, 680w solar, diesel cooking heating and HWS,
Cummins 6BT, Allison 6 speed auto, Nissan transfer.

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30 Nov 2014 16:17 - 30 Nov 2014 17:46 #24 by TH
TH replied the topic: Electric Fan
Deano

I'd say a little from column a, b and c on that one. Gauge reads high. Aircon on in mid 30's under load see's the actual temp push into mid 90's and drops back to mid 80's down hill or with a/c off. Add another 10'C of air temp and I reckon I'll be sitting around 100'C. I've turned left at the Overlander with the outside temp sitting at 53'C before.

I think the XT cooling system is a bit of a fail to tell the truth. I've procrastinated on pulling the radiator so far. Maybe this summer, but then I'd probably go fishing instead.

I hadn't thought of relocating the intercooler. It isn't a bad idea. It fits the tunnel perfectly, with no air flowing around the edges. I had wondered about moving it forward to let some cooler air past.

I'm interested in Doc's idea but subscribe to the KISS principle. I have used cooling bars on harvesters before to help keep hydrostat cool and I was wondering about adding one with a 12v pump. There is no substitue for cooling area IMHO.

If it was a cummins I'd just fill the viscous hub with silicone.

Pic of intercooler. Very snug



Cheers, Tony
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30 Nov 2014 18:25 - 30 Nov 2014 18:33 #25 by Alister McBride
Alister McBride replied the topic: Electric Fan
My XT is standard but seems to have significantly more punch than others (meaning more heat needs removal) and it runs fine, i even drove some three hours on a 30 odd degree day (not hot i know) at full weight capacity through hills without the v-belt turning the fan and it only raised the temp at times by a few degrees but was usually not noticeable. I recently replaced the rad' core of mine with a thicker core as the old one was disintegrating (and i'm looking to upgrade to a cummins one day, hence the thicker core), it was 20 years old! It worked fine but had the engine out so it was preventative maintenance. If your rad's haven't been cleaned or cores replaced don't blame the standard cooling system, it's simple maintenance. Also, clean the fins in all the condenser, intercooler and rad so air can actually flow! I refuse to believe a perk with intercooler can produce more heat than some XT's with a 260hp cummins in them with standard dimension but thicker core radiator like others are using... It's the best cooling system i've experienced in a vehicle by far!
Cheers, alister
ps. Dave, i can't imagine those fans doing much other than obstructing airflow... thermofan 'pushers' in my experience are garbage. Just my 2 bobs worth.
Last Edit: 30 Nov 2014 18:33 by Alister McBride.

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30 Nov 2014 20:18 #26 by TH
TH replied the topic: Electric Fan
Was it hard to find a larger core, Alister?

Cheers, Tony

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01 Dec 2014 14:41 #27 by Alister McBride
Alister McBride replied the topic: Electric Fan
Nah, just take the radiator into a radiator joint and they'll replace it with same thickness or thicker... From memory it is expensive but not much more for the thicker core. However, depending on whether yours has been done or not, it may just need a clean out. More and more tubes get blocked over time by gunk from the cooling system and it may be that you're only using 1/2 or 2/3 of your radiator!
Cheers, Alister

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02 Dec 2014 21:53 #28 by OKADOC
OKADOC replied the topic: Electric Fan
Hi Men, I believe it's fitting that a topic concerning the top engineering priority being heat transfer has seduced much debate as appears here on this subject from many good knowledgeable enthusiasts on this forum.
Collective intelligence born out of plenty of grief and tears is pretty hard to beat I reckon so I'm giving it my best shot to add the anecdotal evidence we have enjoyably compiled as we wrestled with the Oka's considerable fundamental but certainly not terminal deficiencies in its original engineering design parameters, having said that IMHO they put together a terrain tamer way ahead of its time all the same, and I aknoweledge that hindsight gives us great 20/20!vision allowing us to embellish it with new tecknowledgies and products and enhancing its ambience for all to enjoy as we certainly are enjoying the challenge to create something super special in the all terrain sector.
Hitting the light now and will post regularly from this time on with our research and development details.
Cheers Doc and Lyn

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03 Dec 2014 18:01 #29 by OKADOC
OKADOC replied the topic: Electric Fan
I will keep on topic here, firstly the comments on the thermostat and bypass on the Perks has bewildered me leaving feelings of something ive missed or just not getting. When cold on start up the stat is closed and the water pump is restricted in flow to the block only only when the stat opens at temp does it circulate through the radiator as well so what happens to the water before the stat opens. The variable speed electric water pump enables the whole system to warm up at the same time which eliminates temperature shock from variations within the system and ensures no air locks can form and also removes the cavitation effects experienced by the mechanical water pump mainly the oxygenation of the coolant. Aeration of the coolant retards the heat transfer capacity of the system. AIR bubbles are a very efficient insulation barrier hence why we put 5% air entrainment into the concrete floors of coolrooms and freezers as 100mm of concrete with 5% is equivelant in insulation to 75mm styrene foam.
please, what am I missing here, the bypass word is a mystery to me in the context of this discussion, please enlighten with a bit more technical detail.
cheers all Doc

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03 Dec 2014 21:50 #30 by OKADOC
OKADOC replied the topic: Electric Fan
Hey Mort, it's all good I was actually referring to Deanos post on the 29 th bottom paragraph on the Perks bypass system etc as I can't get my head around the warning engineering principles involved, there must be a gap in my knowledge base somewhere no doubt it will come clearer with time.
Many moons ago I came to the realisation that the congestion of heat exchangers in the not so generous area in front of the radiator was a major issue as the accumulated heat in high Ambients shouted Wrong from the rooftops so all could hear and the addition of an intercooler to boot was out of the question if longevity and reliability of the drive train was to be achieved.
We spend heaps a moula on the rig in many other areas and yet here we have an engineering vacuum with regards to the heat rejection requirements of the beast.
There are two cooling systems on the engine, one being the engine glycol coolant and the other the engine oil and the latter usually has little importance attached to it in general terms as its considered a secondary coolant by way of piston sprays etc.
We all know the oil reaches extreme temps above the glycol temps so why not apply the same status as a coolant to the oil as is applied to the glycol IE have its own radiator either oil to atmosphere or oil to glycol . So we did. That's were the sun visor location was on its own, higher cooler entry air , generous square face area ,1800x400 useable, and an abundance of supply air pressure out front when on the move,2x 16 inch suckers on top . We use the original radiator tunnel to cool auto tranny, A/C and intercooler charge air.Electric water pumps etc
Cheers all Doc

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04 Dec 2014 09:45 #31 by Tony Lee
Tony Lee replied the topic: Electric Fan
Perhaps worth pointing out that the majority of OKA owners are quite satisfied with the performance and comfort and reliability of their OKAs and see no need to spend extra money adding extras which seem to demand adding extra extras and extra extra extras to the point where it becomes an end in itself. Robin Wade warned me against going down that path and I would say his advice is spot on.

Obviously I have no problem with those owners with deep pockets and large egos customising their pride and joy, but when they start saying that their bit of added bling is absolutely essential before any OKA can leave the garage, I'd say they have largely lost the plot and are just full of it.

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04 Dec 2014 10:59 - 26 Mar 2018 12:01 #32 by OKADOC
OKADOC replied the topic: Electric Fan
Horses for courses Tony, we drag a 3.5 tonne trailer through heavy going at slow speeds in 56 deg c through the summer months.
Last Edit: 26 Mar 2018 12:01 by dandjcr.

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04 Dec 2014 11:10 - 04 Dec 2014 11:25 #33 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: Electric Fan
Hi Doc, Mort and all.

I'll try and explain what I'm referring to in a bit more detail as I think it's important to understand the relevant design principles (in this case aspects of the OKA's cooling system) before modifying it 'for the better'.

Automotive engines use a thermostat to regulate the flow of coolant which allows the engine to heat up to operating temperature more quickly than would otherwise be the case. This minimises wear, allows full power to be attained sooner and decreases emissions.

There are two basic types of thermostat, the conventional 'simple' thermostat and the bypass type thermostat.



Pictured here is a (longer) bypass thermostat on the left with a conventional (shorter) thermostat on the right.


As Doc explains "...........When cold on start up the stat is closed and the water pump is restricted in flow to the block only when the stat opens at temp does it (the coolant) circulate through the radiator as well............."

A pretty simple and very common system used on most pre 1990 vehicles back in the day when designing for low emissions was not an issue. The 'simple' thermostat did the job for all the old Holden, Ford, Valiant, BMC engines etc, even my old 4 litre 1996 Jeep Cherokee. The simple thermostat is basically an on/off switch in the coolant path.
The thermostat has moving parts and does wear, it and can become sticky in operation impeding water flow resulting in overheating. It was a common 'fix' in older vehicles to throw away the thermostat at the first sign of overheating which did solve the overheating issue with the downside of slow engine warm up and no temperature regulation (the heater/demister didn't work very well). No one even thought of or cared about emissions. From memory Tridon, a large thermostat manufacturer, recommend changing the thermostat every 4-6 years.

One of the problems with the simple thermostat is that there is no or very little coolant flow when the thermostat is closed, though some water pumps/thermostat housings do have a partial bypass (reducing pumping efficiency), which can lead to slow and uneven engine temperatures during warm up and very important for the newly environmentally conscious automotive industry, increased emissions.

A design answer to this problem was the adoption of the 'bypass' thermostat. This thermostat has an additional valve placed at the end of its shaft which allows coolant to be pumped freely around the engine during warm up but bypassing the radiator. When up to temperature the radiator coolant path is opened (same as the simple thermostat) and the bypass path is closed. So where a simple thermostat is basically an on/off switch a bypass thermostat provides directional control for the coolant.

Removing the thermostat from this type of engine/housing not only removes coolant temperature regulation (same as with the simple thermostat), but more importantly removes directional control of the coolant. There is now nothing to control whether the coolant passes through the radiator for cooling or is 'bypassed' back into the engine without being cooled. It all becomes a bit of an (un) lucky dip.

In a practical sense this can lead to overheating and boiling of coolant particularly in the cylinder head and especially in water/inhibitor or water only systems. ie. systems without an additional coolant such as Ethylene Glycol in sufficient concentration that significantly increases the boiling point of the coolant. Other deficiencies in the cooling system such as poor or no pressurisation can exacerbate the problem.

A system such as Doc describes for his Chev powered OKA (I can only assume it has/had a 'simple' thermostat installed) and uses temperature sensors apart from the thermostat to control coolant flow could be a design improvement over the original but as I said earlier 6.2 litre Chev Diesel V8's are not something I am familiar with. The Chev V8 petrol engines I have worked on have all had 'simple' thermostats.

With a bypass thermostat designed cooling system, such as the Perkins it may be possible to block the bypass coolant route (essentially creating a less efficient 'simple' thermostat type system) and remove the thermostat and install an electric pump such as Doc's but quite frankly I don't see the point.

The bypass thermostat cooling system designed for the OKA, when in good condition, works well even in severe conditions though I reckon the LT system is much better than the XT mainly due to its larger radiator with its ease of access for maintenance.

On our recent (July/August) trip through the Great Sandy Desert which had approx. 600 Km of low range off road travel with numerous sand dune crossings and ambient temperatures in the mid to high 30's OKA 413 (LT) sat comfortably on 82 degrees C all the way. This is the thermostat operating temperature and this figure means the cooling system was doing it easy. By comparison the accompanying vehicles, 2 XT OKA's had temps often sitting in the 90's and up to 100 degrees C. This may be because they had smaller radiators, were running air con (unfortunately ours was broken :( ) and/or the cooling systems were below par as they may not have been recently overhauled as ours had.

In the opening post of this thread the question is asked ........................... "is has anyone installed an electric fan and if so what size and where did you install it? behind the radiator or at the end of the cowl etc and if no one has one the any suggestions or reasons why I shouldnt."


I hope my contribution to this subject has been both helpful and informative.


Deano :)
Last Edit: 04 Dec 2014 11:25 by Dean and Kaye Howells.
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04 Dec 2014 11:44 #34 by TH
TH replied the topic: Electric Fan
Don't forget that Robin's #002 was a victim of overheating, Tony.

I think there isn't much freeboard in the XT's cooling capacity. It's not the greatest design even before you add age and corrosion into the mix

I agree with your second point, Tony, there is no such thing as an essential modification (plenty of pretty cool ones). OKA's worked "reasonably" well straight off the showroom floor.

There is no harm in trying new ideas though, at worst you learn from your mistakes.

After all, this entire topic was about alternative cooling options. It's nice to have a choice.

Cheers, Tony
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04 Dec 2014 13:30 #35 by OKADOC
OKADOC replied the topic: Electric Fan
That said TH is correct if you stay with a perk. however throw a more powerful drive train into it to suit individual requirements and operating conditions and ambients such as we have in our back yard playground and everything revolves around keeping it cooooooool much more so than normal, bling, ego or anything else other than good engineering applications will not allow us to do our monthly services and visits to the remote communities and mine sites as trouble free as possible . The expense of vehicle recovery when it's out deep in the paddock is a deal breaker for our business and the client. Heat transfer has been my profession for 50 yrs now and it's been an enjoyable excersize developing systems to meet those required parameters.
The systems developed are not for everyone as our purpose in life is not the same, but the various enhancements we make are essentially non negotiable, believe me, after two V 8 engines and two auto tranny change outs and one Rockwell disintegration , two snapped rear axles, one Detroit locker destroyed, leaf springsand spring hangers enhancements, tyre upgrades etc etc and then yes your right, you learn by your mistakes, ain't that the truth.
Thanks for your reply Deano I will respond just as soon as I've digested it and have it and the alternatives in the right perspective.
Happy travels to all Doc And Lyn Davey
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04 Dec 2014 15:46 - 04 Dec 2014 16:41 #36 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Electric Fan

Dean and Kaye Howells wrote: The bypass thermostat cooling system designed for the OKA, when in good condition, works well even in severe conditions though I reckon the LT system is much better than the XT mainly due to its larger radiator with its ease of access for maintenance.

On our recent (July/August) trip through the Great Sandy Desert which had approx. 600 Km of low range off road travel with numerous sand dune crossings and ambient temperatures in the mid to high 30's OKA 413 (LT) sat comfortably on 82 degrees C all the way. This is the thermostat operating temperature and this figure means the cooling system was doing it easy. By comparison the accompanying vehicles, 2 XT OKA's had temps often sitting in the 90's and up to 100 degrees C. This may be because they had smaller radiators, were running air con (unfortunately ours was broken :( ) and/or the cooling systems were below par as they may not have been recently overhauled as ours had.

Deano
Suggest your negative experiences with XT cooling system are more to do with age, mileage and lack of maintenence

Our XT has done 30,000kms since full reco of the Perk..

including new radiator..

and hoses..


Paul Nott suggested early that I might have a faulty temp. guage. I removed it, the sender and thermostat and tested them against a thermometer. Found the guage to be over reading by more than 10 deg. Had it re-calibrated by Howard instruments and it has never gone up into the green since.

On #149's "maiden voyage", Xmas 2 yrs ago we had a trip up the Newell Hwy travelling at 95 to 110 KPH Geelong to Lismore and back down the coast. Temps well over 40 degrees C and the thermostat never stepped into the green (82 deg C = 180F = thermostat op temp). Front and rear aircon was running flat out and temp in the cab was cold all the way.

Have done a number of hot summer trips since, including low range heavy desert work and the thermostat never goes into the green.

Our only problem with aircon has been a recent bad earth on the relay that connects the thermoamplifier that balances the rear thermistor with the adjustable rheostat on the dash. This was stopping the solenoid that manages flow to the rear aircon from opening but easy fixed once we identified the problem by working through the steps for the rear air con system in the XT service manual.

All the above comments apply to adequacy of cooling system only.
#149 purrs in the cool evening/night air but suffers huge loss of power in the heat esp with the aircon running.

Hoping that proposed intercooler will help.

Rick Whitworth: OKA XT 149.
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05 Dec 2014 02:05 #37 by Joseph Baz
Joseph Baz replied the topic: Electric Fan
For those opting for the electric alternative I will share my past experiences,I have found the SPAL brand to be the very best quality around,sealed motors with bearings etc,etc,the drawback in the 3000+ CFM is the starting power draw,about 31-32 amps,10-12 amps on continuous run,for this alone the starting temperatures need to be staggered to have the fans starting at slightly different times,a cowling is needed to maximize efficiency,mounting straight on to the radiator just doesn't cut it,they are more efficient as a puller than a pusher and should be wired with 50 amp relays,done this to four different applications with great success,also bear in mind that the cost of the equipment and fabrication will well exceed the price of the Perkins Parts.
Cheers,Joe
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05 Dec 2014 06:35 - 26 Mar 2018 12:04 #38 by Alister McBride
Alister McBride replied the topic: Electric Fan
Tony, who cares what others do with their vehicles if they want to, i welcome them sharing what they've done so i can make a better decision in future. I value what you do as well as what Doc does.

I welcome your contributions as long as they're constructive and add to the oka community...
Cheers, Alister
Last Edit: 26 Mar 2018 12:04 by dandjcr.
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05 Dec 2014 10:25 #39 by Dave and Pauline Gray
Dave and Pauline Gray replied the topic: Electric Fan
On our recent (July/August) trip through the Great Sandy Desert which had approx. 600 Km of low range off road travel with numerous sand dune crossings and ambient temperatures in the mid to high 30's OKA 413 (LT) sat comfortably on 82 degrees C all the way. This is the thermostat operating temperature and this figure means the cooling system was doing it easy. By comparison the accompanying vehicles, 2 XT OKA's had temps often sitting in the 90's and up to 100 degrees C. This may be because they had smaller radiators, were running air con (unfortunately ours was broken :( ) and/or the cooling systems were below par as they may not have been recently overhauled as ours had.

In the opening post of this thread the question is asked ........................... "is has anyone installed an electric fan and if so what size and where did you install it? behind the radiator or at the end of the cowl etc and if no one has one the any suggestions or reasons why I shouldnt."


I hope my contribution to this subject has been both helpful and informative.

Deano :)[/quote]


I.m forced into this topic by Deanos statement that both XT Okas and as we were one of those units suffered temperatures to100degrees as i can only speak for
myself on this at no time did our Oka hit 100 far from it it got into the low 90s a few times and I might dispute Deanos claim that his temp never rose above thermostat temp soft sand and large steep sandhilsl will test the cooling system of most vehicles on 35plus days but I wasn't looking at his gauges so if it is as he claims the LT system is a winner.
Also I had a couple of layers of shade cloth hanging on the front to protect the ingress of foliage into the radiator core ,even that wasn't fool proof as I reckon it was at least 10 to 20 % blocked when i cleaned it at home,also on the way home the viscous fan failed and although the temp got into the mid 90s it was easy to control by backing off the throttle and the farther south we got the lower ambian temps and with it the coolant temperature were pretty well normal.
I agree with others statements that the XT system is more than capable of handling the Perkins, larger engines and drivelines are always going to need adjustment.
The only time i have experienced temperatures that the cooling system has struggled with are 40plus ambiab temps with a tail wind ,I have experienced the same when driving road trains with trucks with radiators 1400square inches in size ,careful operation keeps the temperatures under the red line ,in other word slow down gear down and take the pressure off your engine and driveline.

Cheers Dave
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05 Dec 2014 19:27 #40 by OKADOC
OKADOC replied the topic: Electric Fan
The very best of wishes for a merry Xmas and fun safe cool travels in the new year to everyone.
Doc and Lyn Davey
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