Turbo upgrade

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20 Feb 2017 07:23 #341 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade - 3 or 4 inch intercooler?
Hi David every thing has to be done in the right time but good to see you are clear to start.
I don't think the amount of benefit will be an issue but I would go for 4" purely for its greater surface area when you don't have much airflow you will still get heat dissipation.
Martyn (its an OKA thing)
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20 Feb 2017 09:01 #342 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade - 3 or 4 inch intercooler?
David I have just measured my inter-cooler 450x250x75 with 75 in and out with 65 pipe to and from inter-cooler. That was in place when designing and testing turbo.
Martyn (its an OKA thing)
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20 Feb 2017 12:26 #343 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Turbo upgrade - 3 or 4 inch intercooler?
Ditto Deano go 4"

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20 Feb 2017 19:36 #344 by Ralley
Ralley replied the topic: Turbo upgrade - 3 or 4 inch intercooler?
Go water to air less lag and you only need to plumb heater size hose. Who has gauges on their intercooler to tell if it's doing the job or is it just an assumption?
Rob

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22 Feb 2017 16:33 #345 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Another advantage of water/air is that as a heat exchanger system any failure/damage to the radiator or plumbing doesn't affect the air induction to the engine. A definite plus for 'remote travelers' I would have thought :) .

The only downside I can perceive is that a coolant leak in the aftercooler could put fluid into the inlet manifold. Not a good thing. Whether this is a theoretical or real risk I don't know but mounting the aftercooler below the inlet manifold would hopefully negate any potential problems here.

Deano :)

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22 Feb 2017 17:28 - 22 Feb 2017 18:43 #346 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi All at the risk causing a flurry of comments between the ones for and against one or the other here is a link to an article and in the end which one do you feel comfortable with.
www.turbosmart.com.au/technical-articles...n-intercooler-works/
www.crosscountry4x4.com.au/tips-and-tric...vs-water-to-air.html

Martyn (its an OKA thing)
Last Edit: 22 Feb 2017 18:43 by mort.
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22 Feb 2017 18:46 #347 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Here is an interesting video that may be good for the times when no air flow.
www.carthrottle.com/post/painting-the-in...turbod-engine-happy/
Martyn (its an OKA thing)
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22 Feb 2017 19:41 #348 by Ralley
Ralley replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
I did a lot of research before deciding on water to air. In all my reserch I only came across one water leak and it did no damage. While ever the engine is running it's more likely to put air in the water than for water to end up in the engine because of the positive pressure. Having said that it's something to keep an eye on. So far for me it been working a treat. I put a gauge on the hot and cold side so I could monitor the efficiency of the system and it's worked better than I expected. If anyone is interested I'll put some figures up sometime in a seperate post.
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22 Feb 2017 20:17 - 23 Feb 2017 11:11 #349 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

mort wrote: Here is an interesting video that may be good for the times when no air flow.
www.carthrottle.com/post/painting-the-in...turbod-engine-happy/
Martyn (its an OKA thing)


I'd say good for any times flow or no flow.

...want it black like Mick's red door?

On second look only applies to no flow, their measurements show black paint is less efficient with flow.

Rick Whitworth: OKA XT 149.
Last Edit: 23 Feb 2017 11:11 by Rick Whitworth.
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22 Feb 2017 20:30 - 22 Feb 2017 20:43 #350 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
re front mounted air to air

I do suffer some turbo lag. Its not bad and you get used to how to deal with it. I was concerned about it before I did the plumbing and wanted to do 3" for this reason but there was just not enough room coming out of the turbo and along the chassis rail below the drivers seat so I had to use 2.5".

I believe it may have reduced lag.

Although most of the time I find that lag is no big deal. It is only an issue if you are doddling along without the turbo pumping and suddenly want power. If you really want to maintain power and you keep the turbo "on" there is no lag.

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Last Edit: 22 Feb 2017 20:43 by Rick Whitworth.
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23 Feb 2017 14:27 #351 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

Rick Whitworth wrote: On second look only applies to no flow, their measurements show black paint is less efficient with flow.


Good seat of the pants experimentation. I liked the use of a vacuum cleaner in blow mode to distribute the paint spray into the fins.

The black no flow results are very dependent upon the heat having somewhere cooler to radiate to (and mostly from the external surfaces). On a hot road and surrounded by hot metal, it wouldn't be so convincing. Still need a fan to augment natural air flow.

I recall the black flow results were 97º (vs unpainted 100º), not a huge difference, the layer of paint presumably reducing heat transfer so maybe no paint inside is better?

Either way, worth the price a spray can.

David

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23 Feb 2017 14:49 - 23 Feb 2017 16:57 #352 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Turbo upgrade - 3 or 4 inch intercooler?

Ralley wrote: Go water to air less lag and you only need to plumb heater size hose.
Rob


Rob, undoubtably water to air intercooling is the ultimate for minimum lag and maximum thermal efficiency but the decision usually boils (no pun intended) down to practicalities and complexity (and cost).

Reducing the lag means shorter air paths and in an Oka that really means locating the intercooler beside the engine and behind the passengers seat, with a external exhaust path (plus I have a 3rd battery in there). Also the water/glycol has to be cooled which adds to complexity.

I'm not sure yet (since I don't have an intercooler) what effect lag might have on the way I use/drive our Oka but like Rick, I suspect it won't become a major issue. I'll be happy with more continuous grunt rather than instant grunt.

So I'll go with the front/under mounted intercooler and fan but I have also investigated the use of water spray to provide additional cooling but I think that might be a nice-to-have, won't change the lag and might not play well with a fan.

Nevertheless, I'd still be interested in your water to air solution and your results. You might recall Tim Forsyth did something similar (very expensively, see below) to his Oka several years ago, which James now owns. His upgrade raised the Perkins power to 91HP (67kw), not hugely different to Mort's upgrade performance.

(Note the notches in his gear shafts to clear his turbo on page 4 and relocated manifold inlet to improve air distribution to cylinders).

David

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23 Feb 2017 19:19 - 23 Feb 2017 19:23 #353 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Today I couldn't find a simple example to explain why black is better but these 2 links may help to explain the reasons why a black surface is better at dispelling heat than any other and the table will show the difference between aluminium and matt black if you are interested or you can paint matt black just because or ask yourself why a radiator is black.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff's_law_of_thermal_radiation
www.thermoworks.com/learning/emissivity_table
Enjoy the reading
Martyn (its an OKA thing)
Last Edit: 23 Feb 2017 19:23 by mort.

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23 Feb 2017 19:34 #354 by Ralley
Ralley replied the topic: Turbo upgrade - 3 or 4 inch intercooler?
I've put some pic's in of what I did.
The system is really not that complicated. The plumbing for the actual cooler is very simple and short. That leaves the water cooling for the cooler. After the water has been through the hot side of the cooler (its a duel pass design) it goes straight to the radiator which is rubber mounted to the back of the bash plate that has a thicker front plate that I put a grill in to let the air flow through and reinforced with a bar down the middle for strength. There is also a 16" fan mounted on the back. The Pic may look like a Kangaroo grater. The radiator is also a duel pass design. The water then goes to a tank for a bit of volume. From memory I think it's about 10L, it's mounted in the bumper but could go anywhere. It then goes to a 25lpm pump (15000h life) then it goes to a filler cap, this the highest point of the system this is also where the air from the system bleeds to. Then it goes to the cold side of the cooler. There is also a temperature sensor for the fan controller between the pump and the cooler. This switches the fan on when the water going to the cooler is above 40c. You may also notice a temperature sensors on the hot and cold side of the cooler, this is the gauge with the blue numbers on the dash.
The cooler is an of the shelf cooler from frozen boost in the US. The radiator is custom made by PWR but you could use a radiator from a car that fit's. I had it custom made so I could have maximum capacity. The hose is standard 19mm heater hose, the filler is also from frozen boost. The pump was bought from Davis Craig. Besides the radiator the system is fairly inexpensive to setup.
As for reliability, I figure if anything goes wrong with the water cooling side of the system it won't stop me, just wind the fuel back and drive it home. I chose one of frozen boost's higher boost coolers with the hope that it's build heavier to take the higher boost. Time will tell.

As an example the intake temperature at 100km/h is generally about 10-15deg above ambient. Recently I was travelling north from Taree with a bus load and camper trailer in tow at 100km/h with the outside temperature at 45deg the intake temperature was in the mid to high 50's with the hot side of the intercooler between 90 and 100. The highest I've seen with wide open throttle (26psi of boost) up thunderbolts way near Gloucester long enough for the temperatures to stabilise (second and third gear around 8t GCM). I had 148 going in and 68 coming out. This was with an ambient of about 30 and with an injector pump timing problem, I expect it wouldn't get that high now.








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24 Feb 2017 06:55 - 24 Feb 2017 09:07 #355 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Turbo upgrade - 3 or 4 inch intercooler?
Thanks Rob, Nice job

Ralley wrote: The plumbing for the actual cooler is very simple and short.

Next to the improved heat transfer for air to water this is your biggest advantage. There are many potential points of failure in the large number of joints (25 or more pipe clamps on mine!) that connect any diy front mounted air to air, especially on an OKA. Making sure that none of them leak is a challenge and you always listen with one eye on the boost gauge conscious of any possible leeks.

Question for you Fluid Dynamicists...
How to measure a leak?
My Boost Guage comes off the Perks manifold inlet pipe. If I were to add another back at the Turbo compressor end and my intercooler or the plumbing had a leak would there be a difference between the guage readings or would they read the same?

I would have thought they would be the same, so is there any way to monitor for a leak under operating conditions without breaking the line.

Ralley also wrote: The highest I've seen with wide open throttle (26psi of boost) up thunderbolts way.......


....WOW!

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Last Edit: 24 Feb 2017 09:07 by Rick Whitworth.

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24 Feb 2017 10:30 #356 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade - 3 or 4 inch intercooler?
Hi Rick there should not be a difference in pressure,if say your gauge reads 16 psi it will be the same from the turbo through to the valves.If you had a leak you should hear it certainly if it was big enough to impede performance.
I dont have a lag not that I have noticed but remembering that you had extra work done to your injector pump which may cause it,is it a case of now you have acceleration where before you didnt and it is just a case of getting used to it and in say a years time it will become just normal.
The turbo was designed with 1.2 mt piping to and from the air to air inter-cooler.
Martyn (its an OKA thing)
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24 Feb 2017 12:12 #357 by Ralley
Ralley replied the topic: Turbo upgrade - 3 or 4 inch intercooler?
There will be a pressure drop from one side of the intercooler to the other. The core of the intercooler is not 100% efficient, there is a restriction. If you look on the Frozen boost web sit they tell you the pressure drop. This is why I put the hose for the waste gate on the inlet manifold. The pics on the Perkins water to air is the same.

Remember the 26psi is a Cummins not a Perkins. It would seem that 35psi without mods is very safe. There are plenty of Landcruisers running 25+
Rob
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24 Feb 2017 16:02 #358 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade - 3 or 4 inch intercooler?
Hi Ralley yes you are right there is a pressure drop but it is negligible for this application and the advantage of air to air is that the bigger the inter-cooler the less the drop and again yes the connection for the waste-gate actuator is better on the manifold as it is a more accurate reading but again is the difference worth the effort, if it was for a race car yes.
One can go into all the minute details of an engine and how to squeeze out every drop of extra power but in the end confuse those who dont want or need to know.
Martyn (its an OKA thing)

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24 Feb 2017 17:20 - 20 Mar 2018 17:09 #359 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
I'm with Rob here regards the efficacy of water/air vs air/air. I can see that from a commercial sense air/air is cheaper and a simpler concept than water/air but from a practical construction, reliability and efficiency viewpoint I reckon water/air is a much better system.

Trying to plumb large diameter air pipes with multiple soft bends, straight pipe and numerous clamps to me just gives too many potential points of failure as well as a nightmare to design and install with the end result being an inferior system (to water/air) IMO. I totally disagree that water/air is more complex and difficult to install. Yes, there are more components but the siting and mounting is not as difficult and critical as for air/air.

Here's one I prepared earlier :) .



These are the bits required for a water/air intercooler system. These came off an Oka with a strange European (can't remember the name) diesel engine that was replaced several years ago.

At the top is the intercooler underneath it is a 12 volt Bosch circulation pump and partially hidden by the ruler is a manual thermostat for setting the cut in temp of the fan and/or circulation pump, no relay needed as it's contacts are good for 20 amps :) . Underneath them is the radiator (250X300) with a Davies Craig fan attached. The red tape is just holding a piece of plastic across the back of the radiator to protect it from damage. To the left is the few bits of 50mm plumbing needed to plumb the intercooler in and to the bottom left is the filler/pressure cap/expansion tank for the water/glycol coolant. The whole lot is tied together with 19mm heater hose and as long as the filler/pressure cap/expansion tank is mounted higher than the rest all is good :). I reckon it would be a heck of a lot easier to mount this lot than an equivalent air/air intercooler system.

As glycol/water is a more efficient heat transfer medium than air the radiator does not need to be as large as an equivalent air/air system which can give more mounting options.

The intercooler looks like this inside.



Deano :)
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24 Feb 2017 21:35 - 24 Feb 2017 21:55 #360 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Turbo upgrade - 3 or 4 inch intercooler?

Rick Whitworth wrote: How to measure a leak?
My Boost Guage comes off the Perks manifold inlet pipe. If I were to add another back at the Turbo compressor end and my intercooler or the plumbing had a leak would there be a difference between the guage readings or would they read the same?

I would have thought they would be the same, so is there any way to monitor for a leak under operating conditions without breaking the line.


Rick, I had to resort to an equivalent elecrical circuit. Airflow through the system is analogous to current flowing from a battery (turbo) through wiring (pipes and intercooler) and though a load (engine) to ground (outside air).



If you monitored the turbo output pressure as well as the manifold inlet pressure the readings would be different, due to air resistance through the pipework and intercooler (which is typically 1-5 psi drop).

If there was any leakage from the pipework or intercooler, the pressure at the manifold would be less (like when a battery voltage drops when a load is applied), but also the turbo pressure might also drop a bit depending on how close to it the leakage was, so a differential pressure meter would show leaks up the best. But like an electrical circuit, small leaks may be difficult to detect this way so a better way might be the old soapy water spray like checking for gas leaks. Or more likely they would whistle or sizzle.

When driving, a joint/clamp failing/coming loose might be detectable using a differential meter before it became major break, but for a large leak (like a hose joint becoming detached) I suspect you would notice the sudden loss of power long before reading it on a meter....

Sorry for any egg sucking here.

David

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