Turbo upgrade

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25 Feb 2017 03:53 #361 by Peter and Sandra OKA 374
Peter and Sandra OKA 374 replied the topic: Turbo upgrade - 3 or 4 inch intercooler?
Having had a hose split between the turbo and intake under boost you will definately notice any sort of leak, think of a fart on steroids which builds in volume as the boost does.
Having also had a hose pop off between turbo and intake with a huge bang (normal worm drive clamps can't hack the pace), again you will initially think the engine has grenaded it makes such a loud boom.
On the intake side there is far less chance of noticing a leak, quite a few early 12HT powered Landcruisers ended up dusted when the turbo intake pip split just in from the RH front wheel, on dirt roads the engine was stuffed very quickly.

OKA 374 LT Van, converted to camper/motorhome,
400ah Lithiums, 680w solar, diesel cooking heating and HWS,
Cummins 6BT, Allison 6 speed auto, Nissan transfer.

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25 Feb 2017 06:32 #362 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Along similiar lines, does anyone know if replacement 'foofer valve' thingys (on the air cleaner housing) are available ? After all the work on my new engine this is now the weak link in my air supply as it's the only bit of 20 year old rubber left.

Deano :)

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25 Feb 2017 07:43 - 25 Feb 2017 07:46 #363 by Tony Lee
Tony Lee replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
pretty sure Donaldson had them in their catalogue. Vacuator is their correct name but floofer sounds better

india.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/065850.pdf
Last Edit: 25 Feb 2017 07:46 by Tony Lee.
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25 Feb 2017 09:15 - 25 Feb 2017 09:20 #364 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

Dean and Kaye Howells wrote: I totally disagree that water/air is more complex and difficult to install....Here's one I prepared earlier


Deano,
Thanks for the pics. Based on personal experience I found water/air unnecessarily complex....

At the time I researched water/air vs air/air I could not get reliable info to source parts and build a diy water/air solution that I could be sure would work. Apart from Tim Forsythes expensive non diy install I could not source any OKA related water/air info.

With Air to air there was no guessing, it was easy to install and it works extremely well esp in 40+ temps as predicted.

There are many more components and considerations in water/air, one critical one that is always discussed is the volume of water needed and the header tank size, an item that seems to be missing in your pics.

re my prev comments on turbo lag
I probably overstated it. All turbo charged diesels esp those with mechanical IPs have lag to some degree or other. Lets just say mine goes so well now :) that I want it at its peak whenever I give it a squirt!!

like Paul said we all want our bricks to run like Lamborghinis!

Rick Whitworth: OKA XT 149.
Last Edit: 25 Feb 2017 09:20 by Rick Whitworth.
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25 Feb 2017 15:29 #365 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Which is the best inter-cooler? the answer is easy the one that you are happy with.It may not be the one that I am happy with but if you are happy then it is right for you.
It is not my place to say mine is the superior because that is saying every one else has an inferior one.
Each system has its place and if designed correctly then it will work as expected.
There are differences though.
Why does a drag racer use water to air or why does a distance racer use air to air.
Water to air use water to take the heat out of the charge air and then use air to take the heat out of the water which is good for short runs but eventually the water reaches a point that the air cannot cool it any further so the radiator needs to be of a suitable size with good air flow and not that silly little one as above.
Yes water is a more efficient heat transfer medium but then you have to cool the water.
Air to air uses air to do the cooling but the efficiency is dependent on the air flow, air temp and wind chill factor.
Good for long runs and simple,if you will be idling or driving slow for long periods which means no air flow then not much cooling but remember that you also wont be on boost so not a lot of heat generated.
Remember that what you use is your choice you have done research and it is right for you and if some one knocks it is actually because they are just trying to convince themselves that they have made the right choice.
Martyn (its an OKA thing)

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26 Feb 2017 07:11 - 26 Feb 2017 07:35 #366 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
I am no expert but for me, prior to my upgrade, an intercooler has always been the first priority.
... I often noticed on the highway that the Perk would sing in the cool evening air with a noticeable increase in performance after struggling in the heat of the day.

Adding an intercooler without a bigger wastegated turbo to compensate for the loss in pressure and extra volume of air would have been a waste of time and Mort's turbo was the perfectly designed solution.

The IP, intake and exhaust mods were done to allow the turbo to run at its peak.

I had a number of classic motorbikes as a kid, mostly paddock bikes, a pastime that marriage cured for me but still pursued by friends today. In the early 70s a uni friend bought a Suzuki GT 750. Went like stink, but the water cooling gave him lots of grief with leaks and corrosion. It was chided with all sorts of knick names, the kettle, the steamer and why would ya water cool a bike?

At different times we have been proud owners of VW Beetle with a blueprinted 1600cc Formula V engine and an indestructible 2 litre Kombi. The simple full alloy Porsche and VW air cooled engines of the era were renowned for their robustness in all temperatures. Our Kombi was a serious off road camper.

These days, air cooled engines, even on motorcycles are becoming a thing of the past. All the same, bad memories of stuck thermostats, leaky radiator hoses, blown heater cores, stuck heater taps, corroded water pumps, seized bolts and rotten radiator cores and steam from under the bonnet always miles from anywhere have built strong suspicion toward any part of a donk that has water in it.

as Mort says if the wastegated Turbo is designed to compensate....?

Water to air?
...why would ya?

Answers: less joints, volume and pressure loss and better heat exchange (if properly designed)

It's horses for courses and if you have the wherewithal, go for it. As always, please contradict, the more ideas, opinions, info and varied successful solutions detailed on here the better.

Rick Whitworth: OKA XT 149.
Last Edit: 26 Feb 2017 07:35 by Rick Whitworth.
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26 Feb 2017 09:39 #367 by Peter and Sandra OKA 374
Peter and Sandra OKA 374 replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
I have had an air to air intercooler and most of the necessary bits on the shelf in the shed since buying the Oka, now over six years as once the auto went in and transmission coolers took up the space underneath at the front then space for the intercooler became a problem. At the moment I'm leaning towards a water to air due to the space constraints but fitting the radiator even though it is only 25mm thick will mean spacing the grille forwards for clearance but everything else will fit easily in the engine bay similar to Ralleys setup.

OKA 374 LT Van, converted to camper/motorhome,
400ah Lithiums, 680w solar, diesel cooking heating and HWS,
Cummins 6BT, Allison 6 speed auto, Nissan transfer.

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26 Feb 2017 17:57 #368 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
.................. crikey Rick, I must be getting old :( , when I was a kid my Uncle Ted still had his old Scott 'Flying Squirrel', a pre war? water cooled motor bike that was still going in the late 50's early 60's.

Aaahh .............. Formula Vee, if you had a 1600cc Formula Vee back in my old racing days you would have been strung up by the err ...... whatsits. 1200cc was the go and scrutineering was deadly. only a few engine builders were certified and NO reboreing was allowed. A great racing class, affordable, extremely competitive and great to watch.

Peter, thanks for the information :) and have you considered the Cummins factory option ? In #413 I'll be installing a five row tube and fin radiator (at vast expense :) ), which I reckon will give me enough overhead to run the factory 6BT-A air/water system with an absolute 'minimum of fuss'. It won't happen straight away as I need to source the aftercooler and revised injector lines but a real simple 6BT upgrade if the cooling system is up to it. This could possibly be fitted with a separate radiator like in the Hino small buses/motor homes.

Deano :)
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26 Feb 2017 18:20 #369 by Outback Jack
Outback Jack replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Interesting reading........

Bit like Holden or Ford argument.

My set up is Factory 6BTA and will some day give its own cooling system. Some have said to go Air To Air etc.

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26 Feb 2017 18:52 #370 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
heh heh
there you go, there's an answer to everything
...even my whatsits!?

Rick Whitworth: OKA XT 149.

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26 Feb 2017 19:21 #371 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

Outback Jack wrote:
My set up is Factory 6BTA and will some day give its own cooling system. Some have said to go Air To Air etc.


Interesting OBJ, what have you done to enhance the standard LT cooling system to cope with the increased demands from the 6BT and the additional water/air intercooling load ?

Deano :)

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26 Feb 2017 19:29 #372 by Outback Jack
Outback Jack replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Radiator has been upgraded to 4 core offset core.

Has about 26 liters plus of coolant.

In 34 degrees plus heat with 60 percent humidity doesn't get above 85 degrees C. Fan switches on at 85 and it hasnt switched on yet.

Still playing around a little and may have to change cooling fan, but time will tell.

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27 Feb 2017 04:12 #373 by Peter and Sandra OKA 374
Peter and Sandra OKA 374 replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Deano I have an aftercooler sitting here but as yet have been unable to source the injector lines. Personally I don't think there is any point in hooking up the aftercooler in the standard fashion as the intake air would always be heated to coolant temperature which is nominally 80+ C but it would work with it's own standalone cooling system which would then drop inlet air temps to ambient at least.

OKA 374 LT Van, converted to camper/motorhome,
400ah Lithiums, 680w solar, diesel cooking heating and HWS,
Cummins 6BT, Allison 6 speed auto, Nissan transfer.
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27 Feb 2017 06:52 #374 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
I suppose the $64 question is what is 'normal' inlet air temp after compression and any heat leakage from the engine ? I guess the higher the boost pressure the higher the temp and the greater the efficiency of the factory after cooler. In standard form I think the factory setup was good for 20 HP.

Deano :)

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27 Feb 2017 12:38 #375 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Deano you asked the question and answered it. There is no normal temp there is too many variables.
Your last part 20 HP I think you would mean 20 PSI but what do you mean can it only handle 20 PSI or was it only used in engines producing 20 PSI.
Martyn (its an OKA thing)

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27 Feb 2017 13:10 #376 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
The 6BTA inter-cooler or so there is no confusion an inter-cooler is also called an after-cooler is a marine inter-cooler and mounted as a part of the intake manifold and has its own benefits 1 being it is close to the intake or part of so no piping.
when used in marine application the cooling of its water is via a heat exchanger which is cooled via sea water.
Most boats dont have room so the engine is cooled via the same heat exchanger which means your using engine coolant for the inter-cooler this can mean that the charge air will be at a constant temp and so you can rely on a constant power output.
The same setup can be used on the OKA using the engine coolant to cool you wouldn't have fluctuations like driving through snowy mountains in winter or the desert in summer, or can have its own dedicated system.As it was used in marine application I dont know how efficient it is or whether there is better after market models
Martyn (its an OKA thing)

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27 Feb 2017 15:23 #377 by Peter and Sandra OKA 374
Peter and Sandra OKA 374 replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Mort as Deano said the standard aftercooler on the 6bt is good for at least 20 hp in standard trim using the engines coolant. They are/were fitted to lots of medium duty trucks, earthmoving equipment, gensets and pumps as standard from the factory, different setup to the marine aftercooler setup. They can be used to better effect by fitting a standalone cooling system which in turn gives better cooling (ambient instead of engine temp) and would probably give more power as a result.

OKA 374 LT Van, converted to camper/motorhome,
400ah Lithiums, 680w solar, diesel cooking heating and HWS,
Cummins 6BT, Allison 6 speed auto, Nissan transfer.
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27 Feb 2017 15:41 #378 by Ralley
Ralley replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
I think he meant 20hp gain over standard.

In the case of the first gen cummins in the Ram the intercooler gave no increase it was all about pollution.

I think with all the helpful things that have been shared it highlights the need to research to figure out what will suit your application. There can be a huge difference in what you can achieve and it's not always about HP. To me the things that need to be considered are.

* When researching remember that diesels spend more time on boost than a petrol. Don't get caught when they start talking about HP ratings for cooler it's usually petrol ratings.
* The efficiency of the charged airflow, to much restriction could cause to much pressure drop. (effect turbo efficiency and possible power gains)
* The efficiency of the cooler to remove the hot air. Things could go south pretty quick if things get heat soaked, especially if it's tuned when thing are all good.(The cooler may work ok on a cool day but how will it work when it's 45c and you have altitude)
* How does your speed affect the ability to cool. (We may think that we don't push them at slow speed but we have sand driving and some steep climbs even bulldust when towing)
* Complexity is also another consideration and to be honest I think they on pare.
* Availability of parts. To do an air to air for the cummins there is really nothing that I could find that was big enough. There isn't enough room to fit the ones from the US. The only local option was from a truck, size becomes a problem as well.
* The importance of running both a boost and EGT gauges.
* Can the cooler you choose handle the Boost you intend to run (I have read of coolers cracking with high boost)
* Obviously cost is important to all of us.
* For me enduring a Kangaroo strike was also a big consideration on what I did (I know most of you don't drive at night but for some of us it's part of the deal, 18 and counting)
Feel free to add to the list

Rob
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27 Feb 2017 16:09 #379 by Dave and Pauline Gray
Dave and Pauline Gray replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
I will just put my 2 bob s worth in and tell you from experience which of the 2 systems air to air and after cooling worked on trucks pulling 3 trailers on 40c plus days and that was the air to air system as the after cooling air temp was determined by the coolant temp which battled to keep the engine cool.But having said that on a winter night with similar loads the after cooled unit was better as the engine coolant was governed by the thermostat setting which gave a balanced temperature and the air to air had to have a blind fitted to the radiator to get some heat into the engine.
On balance my preference would be air to air as its more controllable on a wider range of ambient temperatures and I don't drive that much at night any more.

Cheers Dave
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27 Feb 2017 18:32 #380 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Peter yes I am not entirely correct thank you. I had helped a relative of sorts remove an old engine from his fishing boat some years ago and replace with a new 6BTA so naturally I believed the 6BTA was the marine version however since your posting I have checked and 6=cylinders B=series T=turbo A=after-cooled so not necessarily the marine version.
Martyn (it a a not fully informed thing)
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