Turbo upgrade

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14 Jun 2017 07:06 #401 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
I have my drill in hand to fit an EGT sensor.

Opinion seems divided as to fitting it pre or post turbo. Right now I could do either (or both).

Any definitive recommendations on which would be the best location? If pre turbo, where is best?

David

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14 Jun 2017 07:55 #402 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
David pre turbo is best as you get a much better reading but there isnt much options to locate as the probe needs to go in a fair distance so post right on the bend after turbo remembering that you can loose up to 100 deg from head to probe so keep that in mind when getting readings
Martyn

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14 Jun 2017 08:07 - 14 Jun 2017 08:10 #403 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Thanks Martin, yes pre turbo is more difficult to locate and extra heat which in theory could cause sensor failure, so I'll fit it post turbo on the dump pipe bend as others have done. If the sensor breaks there, no problems.

It's an Auberins sensor which will be monitored by an Auberins dual channel multimeter which has settable alarm functions for high readings (for both boost and EGT inputs). This meter almost perfectly fits in the space of 2 switches on the centre switch panel, after a bit of rearrangement.



David

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14 Jun 2017 10:17 #404 by John and Bronwyn
John and Bronwyn replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
David, I would recommend pre turbo.
The temperature which does damage is pre turbo and there is no simple relationship between gas temperatures pre- and post- turbo. I actually get highest EGT at lower revs and relatively low boost, a pyro mounted post turbo gives no clue this is happening.
I drilled and tapped the turbo casing itself, there is a convenient flat surface to do so.
I looked into sensor failure, lots of comments about it being a possibility but I could not find any actual examples. The sensor manufacturer (VDO) says it is extremely rare.
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20 Jun 2017 14:44 #405 by 210greg
210greg replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
210 Dyno sheet at last CCF20062017.pdf[attachment=3954]CCF20062017.pdf
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20 Jun 2017 18:28 #406 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi Greg, those figures are different to the first Oka , they are still good but is there any known reason.
Martyn

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20 Jun 2017 18:31 #407 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi All, I have 8 new Turbo's now on the list but to start manufacturing the factory needs minimum of 10 so is there at least 2 more out there needed.
Martyn

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20 Jun 2017 18:47 #408 by 210greg
210greg replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Martyn 64 dollar question asked the Dyno man the same thing he advised that he could try to gain more if I wished we are both more than happy with the results we got. My 2 bobs worth is 366 has travelled about 100k. 210 however has done 450 k I felt it would be foolish to push the old girl to much and the man tendered to agree. And as I have said the improvement to both trucks is beyond belief.
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23 Jun 2017 18:36 #409 by RobS
RobS replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
I missed out on Martyn's first batch of turbo's and being impatient, decided not to wait for the second so I bought a unit for a Phaser 135Ti. As Martyn advised, it wasn't a straightforward fitment needing a T03 - T02 flange adaptor and a new dump pipe both of which I was able to fabricate myself. The upside of making those parts was that I could position the turbo away from the gear selector rods.
I had previously fitted an air / air intercooler as recommended by OKAPETE which made a noticeable difference but hills were still a chore.
I had fitted a post turbo EGT gauge before I installed the intercooler. The intercooler on its own took EGT down to ~440C @90km/h from near 500C. I tweaked the boost compensator about 90 degrees which put the max EGT's back up to 500C and was enough to make the run from Melbourne to Adelaide acceptable. 4th gear out of Bacchus Marsh just..... 003 weighs
~6 tonnes so a fair load to haul.
With the M135Ti turbo installed but no further changes to the injector pump cruising @90km/h resulted in an EGT of 340C with EGT's topping out at 400C. The truck drove noticeably better at speeds below 80kmh but no improvement above 80km/h. I've worked on the injector pump to increase fuel delivery and make some changes to the boost compensation.
I noticed that the boost compensator wasn't working over its full range because the smoke screw prevented the compensator from returning fully under spring pressure.
I unscrewed the smoke screw to get back the 2.5mm of lost movement. I then wound out the star wheel by the same amount to reset the spring preload.
Next I screwed in the max fuel screw 1 turn. (guess based on some data from the land rover forums suggesting EGT's rise 50C per 1/4 turn) and returned the compensator eccentric to its minimum position. All of these changes meant that the idle was ~900rpm so I set that back to 600rpm.
I measured the force required to depress the boost compensator and worked out that full stroke was occurring at ~10psi. I'm a bit worried about the amount of torque that might be available at low RPM so I've decided to soften the boost response at low RPM by unscrewing the star wheel another 3 turns. This has increased the preload so that the boost compensator doesn't move until about 5psi and reaches full stroke at ~15psi. The result was quite pleasing, the truck drove nicely at low RPM, pulled smooth and strong from 1200rpm but was running out of puff by 2000rpm. EGT's were 460C Max. I've since rotated the boost compensator 90 degrees which has increased max EGT's to 500C and improved the high RPM response pulling nicely up to 2500rpm.
As for boost, I see 5psi @800RPM 10psi by 1200rpm 13psi by 1500rpm rising to 16psi @2000rpm.
On the road its a night and day change. Cruising @90km/h results in an EGT of 320C down from the original non intercooled 500C. I'm over to Adelaide again on Sunday so we will see how the pull out of Bacchus Marsh goes this time.
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24 Jun 2017 11:29 #410 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Great sleuthing work Rob.

General question, I had my injector pump fully overhauled a couple years ago to original spec. Made a fair bit of difference and presumably wouldn't be suffering some of the ageing problems other turbo upgraders have found.

So would it still benefit from more tweakage when I (finally) get my new turbo installed?

David

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24 Jun 2017 11:43 #411 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi David and all others
YES you will need to reset your injector pump.
The idea in changing air filter and exhaust is to allow more air in and the Turbo is to force more air in so to get best benefit is to get the ideal air fuel mixture and to get your boost compensate working at its best so you can do it yourself as Rob did or send for dyno.
Doing yourself is a lot of trial and error but it is only adjustments which can be undone.
Martyn

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24 Jun 2017 11:52 #412 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi Rob
Great work and even better that you could remember all the stages you went through.
Too late now but I have a 135Ti standard and one with higher boost capacity that you could have had I just considered it too much trouble to adapt but see what impatience can achieve.
Martyn
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24 Jun 2017 11:54 #413 by RobS
RobS replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi David,

I am by no means an expert but my experience is that you will need to make some changes to the pump. If you make no changes then the truck will drive nicely at low RPM but then as the RPM rises, (on my truck above 1500rpm) the performance will tend toward original.
I got a little bit more go by rotating the compensator pin to maximum but it was already at 75% so not much improvement and EGT was only 400C or so max. The changes to the fuel screw and compensator setup fixed the whole rev range. A rolling road session will get more out of my truck for sure but I'm very happy with it right now and as I said, I'm a bit worried about stressing the transmission with too much low speed torque so I'll see how it goes on the road before I go any further.

Cheers

Rob

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24 Jun 2017 13:33 #414 by RobS
RobS replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi Martyn, Setting the pump wasn't too bad. Manifold and exhaust connections were a bit of a challenge but the oil feed and drain were a bear, drain especially. After my 3rd go at working out how to get the drain into the block I was wondering why I didn't just wait for the next batch of your turbo's but I do like an engineering challenge :)
I have the turbo mounted about 50mm lower than the original , The compressor is much smaller so I moved the whole thing back toward the block such that the compressor is the same distance from the block as the original. That has allowed clearance for the waste gate actuator against the gear selector rods.

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25 Jun 2017 07:13 #415 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi Rob,
I wouldn't worry about stressing the transmission at all it will handle any torque that the Perkins will produce dont forget that that box was used in Europe in a heavier truck with a 6BT and there is a number of OKA's with upgraded engines producing more power than the std. If you have upgraded your diff/axle then the weak point is your uni-joints so unless you tend to try to spin your wheels taking off from lights or if your drive line is in good condition and your not nursing it along dont worry.
Enjoy whatever extra power you can get.
Martyn (its an OKA thing)
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26 Jun 2017 19:36 #416 by RobS
RobS replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Bit more data and musing gained on the trip from Melbourne to Adelaide.
First impressions:
Why didn't OKA build them this way?
Definitely adequate but could use a bit more top end.
No change to overall economy.
Doesn't match Robs 6BT powered bus but neither do I need it to.
So nice to be able to drive using the torque instead of the gear lever.

Ponderings:
EGT pre or post turbo. The EGT sensor on my truck is post turbo. I put it there when I got the truck because it was a safe and easy installation. I read previously in this thread that EGT reading post turbo were inaccurate and would read higher at high load and RPM whereas pre turbo EGT is highest at high load but around 1500rpm. At the time I thought, hmm, EGT on my truck is highest at 1500rpm and is dropping off to 460C above 2000rpm. I saw this with the original turbo. The waste gated turbo behaved similarly before I adjusted the injector pump but 100C or so lower EGT.
However now that I have wound the pump up a bit EGT is behaving quite differently.
What I now see is that EGT rises progressively with load on the engine up to about 430C (14 -15psi) then I hear the waste gate open and within a short time EGT is 500C where it stays (+/-10 C) while the waste gate is open. I can push harder but there little change to EGT I can back off and near no change in EGT until the waste gate closes. Hmm I thought.
So, here is my two penneth as to what's going on. I think the non waste gated turbo just sucks energy from the exhaust stream so that the post turbo EGT is always below pre turbo by some nominally consistent amount.
When it comes to the waste gated turbo the same applies until the waste gate opens. As the gate opens the EGT sensor starts to see exhaust flow where the turbine hasn't sucked out any energy, so the post turbo exhaust gas flow becomes disproportionately hotter and the post turbo EGT tends toward the pre turbo EGT.
Anyhow, in my mind that means the pre turbo EGT on my truck is probably lower than I think under full load and further injector pump tweaking is possible, but I'll not be doing that until I get back home from Adelaide and reposition the EGT sensor.

In short, for waste gated turbo's I think the EGT sensor needs to be pre turbo. For the original turbo post turbo works ok with proper limits.
These are just my thoughts an observations. I could be barking up the wrong tree.

Rob
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29 Jun 2017 15:52 #417 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi All,
I now have 9 Turbos on list to order and only need 1 more to start production so when 10 is reached if there is no more interest that will be the end of it.
Martyn

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05 Jul 2017 07:12 - 05 Jul 2017 07:28 #418 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

dandjcr wrote:
"when I (finally) get my new turbo installed"


Well the day has finally come and I've installed the turbo. Not without the expected but unanticipated little problems however, like holding the turbo up on to the exhaust manifold and then finding out that the original flange nuts are too big to fit (too much flange). Solved that one with different nuts and refitted the oil pipes. The dump pipe is now a reasonable fit with some shimming (better than before) and the modified bracket works OK, (derusted and painted white to reduce heat radiation).

I've decided to connect the turbo direct to the inlet manifold for the time being so I can get the gear shafts modified and working (and the pinch bolt problem solved) plus all the electrics reinstalled before connecting up the intercooler. I suspect slotting the pipes though the available spaces might prove a challenge. Also I'm slightly concerned that the steering rod from the steering box could hit the corner of my (4 inch thick) intercooler under conditions of extreme wheel articulation, so I want to do some road tests first.

The air filter system is substantially complete and tested and a new lift pump installed so I'm finally on the home run. It's been a long journey but not over yet.

Regards, David




David and Janet Ribbans - Oka 148
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07 Jul 2017 16:28 #419 by Ewart and Vivian Halford
Ewart and Vivian Halford replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
I had mine bent.

Ewart oka 365
0428911147

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21 Jul 2017 08:03 #420 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi All,
I have 11 turbo's on the list for order and as there doesn't seem to be any more interest or need I will place an order with the factory next Friday that is the 28/07/17 .
The price is $775.00 plus any delivery charge.
As before 50% on placing order and 50% before shipping.
Martyn
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