Turbo upgrade

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21 Mar 2018 19:27 #441 by alanj
alanj replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hehehe, very philosophical! What do you do for a living?

Increasing the AFR is an interesting thought. It makes sense. It would certainly be the most cost effective upgrade.

Regards truth and belief - my belief was a subjective thought communicated to confess my own personal feeling on the matter so therefore it was the truth as I was not lying. I suppose then that you can have both truth and belief together. (I'm confusing myself now)

Your happy and not happy thoughts are also absolutely correct. Personally I'm under no illusion that a turbo upgrade will drag the new WRX off at the lights. In fact it would probably still struggle to keep up with the traffic. I do believe that it will cruise better on the highway (still at 100km/hr) and better up the hills.

A wise man once said that the Perkins, underpowered as it may be, does a great job in the bush. Therefore most of the focus is on the highway driving before and after the bush leg of any journey.

If investing a couple of grand to improve the power to achieve that extra cruising ability then hopefully people will be smiling. It's a question of investment vs outcome. Is it worth investing up to an extra $28k so it can do what the turbo upgrade does and also keep up with traffic and tow better? Many say absolutely yes! I would too if I could justify that big a spend to the Chief.

A turbo upgrade sounds like a significant improvement for the investment. It has become available for all who would like to do it and at a particularly reasonable price.

I am still be keen to hear people's experiences with the upgrade.

What set up do you have Holmz? Your reply indicates the turbo upgrade. How did you get there? What if anything would you do into the future?

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21 Mar 2018 20:58 #442 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Alan,

Thanks for taking my comments in the positive spirit that they were intended,
(Scientist) however I know enough philosophy and psychology to know that confirmation bias is a human problem.

The mileage goes south pretty quick with a headwind.

Yes I have the upgrade, and it was very kindly installed for me. I have no idea what the boost or the AFR is, but intend on doing a boost gauge. So I would do steps 3,4,1,2 (below) in the future.

I suggest that for a person in your position i would do the following:
1) Figure out the current boost
2) figure out current AFR
3) free up exhaust flow
4) free up intake flow (filter and tubing)

See if/how those steps improve things, as they really also need to be done either sooner or later.

5) Then see if there is any room to alter the AFR richer

(I am pretty confident on my understanding of petrol engine, but less so on diesels. So this step #5 needs some verification from learned people.)

If I had the coins, I would probably go straight a perkin6, duratec or 6BT... or just make sure everything else is bullet proof.
E,g, I need a decent radiator, and I need some sound deadening

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22 Mar 2018 01:04 - 22 Mar 2018 02:19 #443 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

alanj wrote: I am still be keen to hear people's experiences with the upgrade.

Gday Alan,
#149 is running just as well as when I did the full upgrade, I am still very happy with it and as you put it, my and other's before and after figures already speak for themselves.
Note my usage of the truck has decreased over the past year so I have only done around 12000 kms since the upgrade but this did include some challenging terrain.
I believe covering all parts of the Perk's respiration: air intake, turbo, intercooler, injector pump and exhaust flow was the reason for my successfull upgrade.
The work done by the old fashioned diesel dyno tuner was a key. As Ray put it, the performance of any manual injector pump driven diesel, be it a Cummins, Perkins, ISUZU, Canter or anything else, is affected most by its respiration which basically means the amount of fuel and air and of course how well it is tuned to manage temp, density and flow. Provided the head, block, pistons and crank are in good nick all these industrial engines are strong and pretty weĺl equivalent for delivering the power which then mainly depends on how they breathe.

I do, however, suspect that the extra performance has to come at some price.
My engine had been fully reconditioned only 80,000kms before the upgrade. At that stage it was in a sad state having done over 1,500,000kms since new. Trickies Diesel said that even at that stage the crank was still perfectly round despite worn big ends mains and sleeves. Maybe this explains why OKA chose the detuned Phaser 110 tractor rather than the more powerfull135 .. for longer reliability, who knows?

Despite being much smoother and easier to drive, I just get a feeling that there has to be more wear and tear on the whole drive train now. Of course I can always lift the foot and drive it less hard but it goes so well it is hard to avoid the temptation to sit on 100 to 110 and give it a squirt to overtake on the hwy.

On one trip I was told by those following that it blows a fair amount of black stuff under heavy load, however I have since followed it on a trip down through the Otways while my son was driving and did not notice it. Maybe he is a better driver than me. There is never any black residue on the rear bull bar or body panels above the tail pipe.

Again, I have only done one oil change since the upgrade and although it was a bit dark not sure that it was any more than usual.

I still notice how well it goes now compared to before., but as to long term effects, only time will tell. I am still smiling, now I get to choose to use the extra power or not.

Hope this helps
Happy to provide any more details
Also interested to know others experiences
Rick

Rick Whitworth: OKA XT 149.
Last Edit: 22 Mar 2018 02:19 by Rick Whitworth.
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22 Mar 2018 07:57 #444 by alanj
alanj replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Holmz, I think that your plan should now be called the "5 Step Plan to a Bigger Smile". I was sorely tempted to make a comment about sound deadening and wifey but after the trouble I have experienced since the comment in my intro, that is something best left alone (some sound deadener may have been useful back then though).

You have touched on something else of significance - the COOLING SYSTEM. This appears an important but perhaps overlooked modification that may actually be beneficial. I will investigate the cost of a radiator re-core as a part of the process.

It may be something that somebody else has already looked at? Definitely open to suggestions.

Rick, nice to meet you. Thanks for your feedback. It appears you've done the full 5 step plan with success. 1,500,000km is a massive glowing testament to the Perkins. I'm genuinely amazed every time I read about these kinds of achievements.

12,000km is enough mileage to get a feel for the upgrade. It seems you have concerns over the extra wear and tear but at this stage no issues have manifested. I would hope that if the running gear can handle the 6bt etc then a turbo upgrade should be ok because the torque applied to the running gear is more gradual with a turbo (in theory) whereas a bigger engine would place more strain on everything.

You can see I'm clearly all for the turbo upgrade so there is some bias. The cost benefit is excellent and I'm yet to read a negative thought about it that would discourage the process.

Did you happen to do the whole upgrade in one foul swoop or in stages? Were there noticeable differences at each stage or did it all culminate when the upgrade was complete from intake to exhaust? Did you happen to experience an increase in coolant temperature when stomping on the accelerator? Was it enough to be of concern? Would you say that a radiator would be warranted?

I'm thinking about doing it all at once seeing OKA330 will be offline for a while. I guess the first step would be to install a boost and pyro gauge to see what the engine is doing now while waiting in hope that more people will consider doing the upgrade in order to drop prices further.

I wonder if Martyn could put together a package that includes all the bits and pieces that have been developed. The simplicity in ordering may also encourage others to take the plunge.

Martyn?

Thank you everyone for the feedback so far. I recognise that doing up a response for someone you don't even know does take thought and time so it is appreciated.

Alan.

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22 Mar 2018 11:43 #445 by 210greg
210greg replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Alan I have 210 and my brother 366 both have had the turbo upgrade with some mods to existing air cleaner and exhaust as well as trip on dyno both very happy with increase in performance for us it was not about more speed but less gear changes have not travelled a great many miles but have towed camper trailer and trailer with couple ton of wood around the hills here. As for longevity time will tell 210 440k on the clock and when the old turbo was removed it very close to exploding so if the upgrade was not done I would have most likely lost my engine anyway. Worth every cent in my opinion thanks again Mort for all his work. Have posted dyno prints before 210 went 55hp to 95hp 366 went from 66 to 105 these numbers speak for themselves.
Greg
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22 Mar 2018 11:45 - 22 Mar 2018 11:56 #446 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Alan
I did it all at once, not in the order of the topics as detailed on pp 15-16 here...
Turbo
Air Filter
Intercooler
Injector Pump
...it made sense to do it all at once when access to all the areas involved were all open.
So I cannot comment on which mod had the greatest effect. You would only really know by getting dynos done between each mod and they don't come cheap.
One advantage of doing it all at once is you can move your attention from one mod to another while you are awaiting parts. Some bits can't be ordered until you get in there,
In my case a critical upgrade was the mod to the Injector Pump but I had a stuck IP Fuel Pin that was seriously limiting performance.(despite Trickies diesel having done a full reco on the whole Injector system only 68000kms before the upgrade)
All the same I am sure all the above mods made significant difference to the final result.
The Optiair 1100 was the biggest job and if I were doing it again I would use either Morts new filter or find one from an
ACCO 1810 as in Deano's post instead
I had done the straight through muffler with enlarged engine pipe long before the turbo upgrade when the exhaust was replaced in 149's original rebirth. I also had a 4 core radiator rebuild with all new hoses at the same time that the water pump was fully reconditioned with the engine. So I have never had any heating problems (other than a dicky guage)
I think the fan driven intercooler has improved engine temperatures.

Yes, I put my pyro and boost guage in before the upgrade. It was a requirement of the diesel mechanic so he could do an effective pre upgrade dyno check.

re AFR comments
...its the key to the whole upgrade
more power and torque simply requires more F but the problem (and reason for all the mods) is getting the A right to allow more F. My diesel dyno mechanic said he could wring more out of my engine. Sounded interesting but I decided to wait and see how things go.

Rick Whitworth: OKA XT 149.
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22 Mar 2018 14:18 #447 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

Rick Whitworth wrote: Of course I can always lift the foot and drive it less hard but it goes so well it is hard to avoid the temptation to sit on 100 to 110 and give it a squirt to overtake on the hwy.

I am still smiling, now I get to choose to use the extra power or not.

Rick


Such stuff that dreams are made of.

I only once exceeded 105kph, downhill being chased by a truck and I recall thinking then of the upgrades and mods I'd done to front brakes, axle and steering, and how well I had done them....

But I am now on the cusp of getting our Oka on the road for some trials after almost exactly the same upgrade as Rick's (plus a lot of other fixes), spread over a couple of years, and I expect nothing less than the same reaction. Already the engine sounds better, smooth, regular and responsive, and that's just sitting in the shed.

The mechanics have been proven during several rough desert crossings and the overhauled injector pump has only done 15k km so I'm quietly optimistic. Pity about the rust.

David

David and Janet Ribbans - Oka 148
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22 Mar 2018 14:32 #448 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Alan, :dry: :dry:
It is a 6-step process with the interocoler. :lol:

Rick Whitworth wrote: ...
The Optiair 1100 was the biggest job and if I were doing it again I would use either Morts new filter or find one from an
ACCO 1810 as in Deano's post instead

Noted

I had done the straight through muffler with enlarged engine pipe long before the turbo upgrade when the exhaust was replaced in 149's original rebirth.

anything to share?

I also had a 4 core radiator rebuild with all new hoses at the same time that the water pump was fully reconditioned with the engine. So I have never had any heating problems (other than a dicky guage)
I think the fan driven intercooler has improved engine temperatures.

i need to start a search, as it is in need of some help

Yes, I put my pyro and boost guage in before the upgrade. It was a requirement of the diesel mechanic so he could do an effective pre upgrade dyno check

any specific models people recommend?

....

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22 Mar 2018 15:06 #449 by Peter_n_Margaret
Peter_n_Margaret replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

Holmz wrote: Ideally you want quantitative numbers, rather than qualitative accounts,
e.g. ...:
What is the stock: boost, EGT, intake temp, HP/kW?
And then what are the metrics for the new system?

My view is that you need more than that.
My interest was in power at 1500 RPM, rather than how fast it will go, but there are also other limitations that have not been talked about.

I chose the lower of these curves for the new turbo (a Garret T2554) that I fitted to #196 because the smoke was too much at higher power.
I don't have "before" figures, but I am happy with the result, especially low RPM performance and fuel economy HAS improved.

Cheers,
Peter

Cheers, Peter.
OKA196 tinyurl.com/OKA196xtMotorhome
Mob.0428171214
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22 Mar 2018 19:41 #450 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

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22 Mar 2018 19:45 #451 by alanj
alanj replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
David, you paint an amusing picture with the truck. I believe that you will be chasing the trucks soon enough. I hope your efforts are rewarded. It looks like you had already completed a lot of work on #148 on your posts. Has the rust come back or was it yet to be dealt with?

I too have to contend with rust. The skins are affordable but I'm dreading the delivery costs.

This is really good. I'm enjoying reading everyone's input into the upgrade. It does seem that the general consensus is positive. The '5 (or 6) steps to a bigger smile' does work.

Now we just need to get anyone on the fringes to put their hands up for the upgrade too!

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22 Mar 2018 22:09 - 22 Mar 2018 22:12 #452 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

alanj wrote: Has the rust come back or was it yet to be dealt with?


Alan, nothing structural fortunately, only unsightly holes and rust stains around the rear windows, the windscreen, lower door corners, gutters and rear hatch.

Removing much of the loose rust, treating with rust converter, filling and painting camouflages the problem for a few years, if you don't look too closely. Larger holes I've covered with thin ali sheet after treatment, pop riveted on and painted.

The only chassis member affected badly is the cabin cross member which the front side lights are attached to. The bottom and ends rust though.

The good thing about an Oka is that it's truck with rugged good looks rather than a prissy showroom finish and you can drill holes, bolt things on and modify indefinitely and the more you do the more individually rugged it looks. You'll never see 2 the same.

The original Oka paint seems to be armour plated and can withstand a significant amount of attack from passing branches on narrow tracks and still cleans up well afterwards.

David and Janet Ribbans - Oka 148
Oka148 profile here.
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Last Edit: 22 Mar 2018 22:12 by dandjcr.

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22 Mar 2018 22:23 - 22 Mar 2018 22:25 #453 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Holmz, these Boost/EGT displays from Auber instruments seem well regarded. They have a plethora of programable functions.

I've fitted one to my modified switch panel, replacing 2 switches.


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23 Mar 2018 03:12 - 23 Mar 2018 03:14 #454 by Tony Lee
Tony Lee replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
David, did you buy the complete bundle as shown at https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_26&products_id=703 which includes the pressure and temperature probes.

On another related subject, I thought I would try the simplest IP mod as described on the link Mort gave which is the Stage 1 adjustment of the Boost Compensator stop screw. Seemed to be well within my limited capabilities - loosen the lock nut and turn the screw in a turn and check for too much black smoke. The lock nut loosened easily, but the screw itself isn't so cooperative. Filled the recess up with RP7 or whatever overnight to see if that works. The cap on the recess is missing so I guess a few years of water sitting in there hasn't improved things.
Last Edit: 23 Mar 2018 03:14 by Tony Lee.

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23 Mar 2018 05:02 - 23 Mar 2018 05:31 #455 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
The ebay item id given is invalid, no result has been sent

Tony Lee wrote: David, did you buy the complete bundle as shown at https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_26&products_id=703 which includes the pressure and temperature probes.


Tony, no I didn't but I should have, the price total is about the same as the individual parts but you'd save on shipping costs. I wanted to check out the display installation before committing to the (expensive) sensors.

And don't forget bloody GST will apply for all international purchases from 1st July 2018. Some overseas companies (eg Vimeo) are already trying to slug me for GST even though it's not applicable yet.

One thing, the boost/pressure sensor has a neoprene "bung" which pushes into a hole you drill in the inlet system. Their documentation doesn't show the actual hole size required (it's 10mm), only the OD of the bung which is useless info, too large and it will pop out. I've asked them to update their documentation accordingly and they agreed that showing the OD will "confuse customers" but they haven't changed it yet.



My IP never had a cap on the "smoke adjustment screw" even after being completely rebuilt by MTQ Diesels in Adelaide (same place Peter had his dyno work).

This document might provide some insights into IP adjustments, including the Manifold Pressure Compensator or LDA for short (???)
Original here .

File Attachment:

File Name: Turningupt...pump.pdf
File Size:182 KB


David

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23 Mar 2018 07:47 #456 by Tony Lee
Tony Lee replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Thanks David. That file has similar info to the one Martyn referenced

I should have asked - is there any preference for the size of the thread for the egt sender - smaller the better or maybe metric.

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23 Mar 2018 09:38 - 23 Mar 2018 10:02 #457 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Tony, I ordered the M8 metric option but I'm not convinced that's what they sent me, but I wasn't going to mess around.

So I found a tap that seemed to be about the same thread and used that. It needs to be a tight fit so it can't work loose with expansion, but being hollow it's weaker than an equivalent bolt. I put a spacer nut on the adaptor before fitting so its end didn't protrude into the exhaust flow.

A right angle sensor will fit more neatly around the gear shafts than a straight one, depending on where you insert the adaptor.

The sealed tip sensor (which comes with the bundle) seems a better choice than the unseal tip which I bought, although the response time might be longer. Time will tell...




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23 Mar 2018 11:52 #458 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi Tony,
I have a VDO to match all the rest and cant remember the size but used a tapered tap to get a tight fit.
One day I may change to a fancy setup but as I have said before electronics is not my field.
It looks good David
Martyn

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23 Mar 2018 12:27 #459 by Peter_n_Margaret
Peter_n_Margaret replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

mort wrote: Hi Tony,
I have a VDO to match all the rest and cant remember the size but used a tapered tap to get a tight fit.
One day I may change to a fancy setup but as I have said before electronics is not my field.
It looks good David
Martyn

I have a VDO too. My probe is maybe 500mm down the exhaust from the manifold though, which is not ideal.
Also the boost gauge down low (showing 17psi - 3rd gear)

Cheers,
Peter

Cheers, Peter.
OKA196 tinyurl.com/OKA196xtMotorhome
Mob.0428171214
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23 Mar 2018 13:22 - 23 Mar 2018 13:39 #460 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

mort wrote: Hi Tony,
I have a VDO to match all the rest and cant remember the size but used a tapered tap to get a tight fit.
One day I may change to a fancy setup but as I have said before electronics is not my field.
It looks good David
Martyn


Martyn, I used a normal tap but didn't tap right through so it approximated to a tapered hole.

My earlier display picture was a computer simulation, but here is the real thing today, pretty much the same:



Engine is off so boost is zero, and I haven't programmed the EGT display yet (or more correctly I've stuffed it up).

I've also fitted a temperature display on the left for the output from the intercooler (it's a hot day today even under the Oka). I could add a switch and another sensor to show the intercooler input temperature for comparison.

One day soon, I'll get out on the road and test all this stuff.

David and Janet Ribbans - Oka 148
Oka148 profile here.
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