Turbo upgrade

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27 Nov 2019 08:14 #541 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

Rick Whitworth wrote:

Dean and Kaye Howells wrote: I don't think you've quite got the operational concept of the externally waste gated turbo :)
....
Martyn's 'Swift' turbo as supplied to replace the original Oka turbo is an externally waste gated turbo as opposed to the factory Oka turbo which is a non waste gated (sometimes referred to as an internally waste gated ) turbo.


???

The turbo I purchased from Mort has an internal wastegate.
The standard XT turbo I removed has no wastegate.


You're right on the money here Rick :)

Unfortunately after I'd scrambled my draft I was unable to go back in edit mode and correct it. What I was trying to say was that some (incorrectly) use the term internally waste gated to refer to a non waste gated turbo and the term externally waste gated when referring to to turbos with an external waste gate actuating mechanism. Serves me right for not proof reading properly before hitting the submit button and yes :) ...................... I don't think you've quite got the operational concept of the externally waste gated turbo :) haha .......... "et tu Brute"

ps. if Mort or someone can 'retune' the edit timeout period as I reckon I had about 10 minutes before being locked out :(

Deano

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27 Nov 2019 08:55 #542 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
..........................However... I seem to believe that optimal in terms of max power requires more fuel, but optimal in terms of BSFC does not require more fuel. And that a diesel can run lean just fine.
So "efficiently" means it is actually better to be lean?


I'm no automotive engineer so I can't really answer that one but I'd say there's more to practical engine efficiency and effectiveness than its comparative fuel consumption.
On the same tack a petrol engine can also run 'fine' when run lean. I think Charles Lindbergh proved this point to a skeptical military when he effectively proved that the aero engines of the day (WW2) could be run much leaner, without damage, than assumed, thus effectively increasing the range of the bomber fleet and its effectiveness.

........................And changing the waste gate to dump at a different pressure does not change the spooling rate.
That is solely determined by the turbine and compressor ratios.
So below the waste gate opening the waste gate has no effect.?
Or the other way to think of it, is that it is intentionally produces too much boost and too soon, And to keep from over revving the turbo and over boosting the waste gate is put into the turbo that is a touch too small.


No argument here, the waste gated turbo is designed to reach operational boost early in the rev range compared to a non waste gated turbo that is designed to reach maximum boost late in its rev range. :)

Deano :)
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27 Nov 2019 10:11 #543 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Just to clear up some comments.
Daktari was never going to disconnect or remove the pressure hose from the actuator to waste-gate but it was suggested to install a boost controller between the 2 this would make it easier to adjust the waste-gate / boost he did ask me about it and I said it didnt need it as once waste-gate rod set no real need to keep changing it.
The waste-gate actuator rod should be set from factory at 16 psi however a 1/4 to 1/2 turn can make a big difference.

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27 Nov 2019 10:51 #544 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi Holmz,
Dactari is getting on the lower end to what I had expected in the way of boost the same as yours but he did say that he hears a change in exhaust noise so that would suggest that his waste-gate is opening but I am not expecting him to be getting full boost / power yet.
He was having trouble with removing his old turbo so I went down and helped with the removal and installation then he took it for a test up a steep hill that he struggled with but this time he was surprised how easy it was then I made the adjustments to his IP and removed the muffler and tried again and the smile on his face said it all.
He asked should he get it dyno tuned, I told him it wasn't needed as I have done what I could and the only difference is they may get an extra couple of HP and the print out would tell him how much HP so I wouldn't bother until he gets his air filter changed and an inter-cooler but he had it dynoed anyway.
I installed your turbo when your oka was in Perth but could not test as the vehicle was being worked on by your mechanic although I did tell him to test and adjust but I doubt he did.
You have removed your old muffler but not changed your filter and air intake system nor have you had it dyno tuned yet.
Do those things then worry about your boost or lack of it.
Martyn

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27 Nov 2019 11:01 #545 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi Holmz,
This will look like I am posting a lot and yes I haven't been on for a few days so commenting as I read the posts.
Your blue exhaust well yes it can mean much heat but where is it? you have a new exhaust system and depending on what was used it could be either the protective coating ( oil ) that is used and will burn off or some have an aluminium coating that again will change colour with heat but that is what its designed to do.
The question is... is that all it is.
Do you have a pyro gauge installed.
Martyn

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27 Nov 2019 13:44 - 27 Nov 2019 14:08 #546 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi All,
If you are running the original turbo or my replacement you dont have to worry you will not over boost without a waste-gate as original or with a waste-gate variety in the Perkins engine and for that matter a 6BT, that is not to say it cant be done in an engine.
The modern engines that have common rail electronic injection and/or computer management and add to that an engine that some street racer or now called a hoon with a highly modified engine can over boost but lets be clear a production vehicle will be designed to a certain limit as brands cant just blow up because of a malfunctioning controller and also even though the engine may be able to produce more power they are detuned for fuel economy, exhaust emissions, power to weight ratios etc then if the owner wants to play with it then its their problem.
The turbo has a limit to which it can operate so for example you may have a turbo that can produce 30 psi but if you restrict it with exhaust or air intake added to that fuel then it will never achieve 30 however if all ok then 30 is all it will give not an infinite psi.
When I started with the turbo I only wanted for myself but others wanted also so I offered to whoever wanted.
I was mindful that its a 6T truck and 20yrs old some with low klm's and others high, did I want a racing truck ... no.
I first purchased a complete Perkins Phaser manual showing all of the engines from 90hp through to 220hp, all of the turbo models are the same just different turbo's and or intercooled.
I had written to Perkins and asked what could the engine handle ans well over 25psi but considering the age and not knowing the level of service, use or abuse would only recommend 20 psi ( the ans is in my own words but you get the picture ).
The turbo was designed for my own driving needs and so I didnt need to push past 20 psi what I am saying is that it is not capable of producing 25 - 30 psi or above in its std form and installed in the oka.

Martyn
Last Edit: 27 Nov 2019 14:08 by mort. Reason: finished writing

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27 Nov 2019 14:38 - 27 Nov 2019 14:38 #547 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

mort wrote: Hi Holmz,
This will look like I am posting a lot and yes I haven't been on for a few days so commenting as I read the posts.
Your blue exhaust well yes it can mean much heat but where is it? you have a new exhaust system and depending on what was used it could be either the protective coating ( oil ) that is used and will burn off or some have an aluminium coating that again will change colour with heat but that is what its designed to do.
The question is... is that all it is.
Do you have a pyro gauge installed.
Martyn


Thanks Martyn.

Just to recap...
I changes the whole of the exhaust from the muffler back as but the muffler was holy and pipe had the appearance of an inverted flute..
Then we did disconnect the hose from the turbo to wastegate, and put a gauge on the hose. This was for about 10 km of testing with a gauge reader in the back seat.
Max 11 psi.
So there is no way that the wastegate will increase the boost in its current state, but we did hook up the hose again.

The fact the the rear right damper was running hot may only be correlated to the blue exhaust pipe running by it...
So as mentioned... I still need to put the EGT on.

As I do not have an IC and the hoses from the turbo were tight... well there is some chin scratching.

The only other observation was the Mrs said that it blows a lot of black smoke when she is behind the vehicle.
So I do not thing that it is running overly lean.
Last Edit: 27 Nov 2019 14:38 by Holmz.

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27 Nov 2019 14:45 #548 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

Dean and Kaye Howells wrote: ...
I'm no automotive engineer so I can't really answer that one but I'd say there's more to practical engine efficiency and effectiveness than its comparative fuel consumption.
On the same tack a petrol engine can also run 'fine' when run lean. I think Charles Lindbergh proved this point to a skeptical military when he effectively proved that the aero engines of the day (WW2) could be run much leaner, without damage, than assumed, thus effectively increasing the range of the bomber fleet and its effectiveness.
...


The terms are "Rich of Peak" ROP, and
"Lean of Peak" LOP.
Most of those terms are from aircraft, and they do have the Fussball like stick hanging out the dash
To asjust AFR based on EGT so there is that.

The AFR that gives peak EGT is where the danger lives.

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27 Nov 2019 14:49 #549 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
When Rick received the turbo he set about finding some one to dyno etc he rang me and told me he had found some one that would do this and that and did think he is ok my ans was dont go anywhere else as this guy not only knows what to do but most importantly he is prepared to do it.
Some time after the work was done again he rang and I asked are you happy and was it worth it his ans I have a car at home but now it doesn't get used as it is more fun to drive the oka even just to the shop to get milk.
What a great answer.
Rick I know of 1 owner in Cairns that is getting 20 psi and he was just as happy as you.
Now you talk of detuning why you have a new engine, your not a hoon you may not need all the power but you have it when you need it all you have to do is detune you right foot.
There was a friend who put a 6bt in his oka and when completed he came around for me to test, I asked if I had to take it easy or could I try its full power to which he said I could go for it and I did.
When we got home he asked what did I think, well with a big grin I said it reminded me of the days when I only owned V8's and not std it was a thrill but not for me as I would use the power I would have no control and the last time I got a speeding ticket was the last V8.
So Rick is this your problem Ha Ha
Martyn

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27 Nov 2019 20:10 #550 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Just for info,
There are 3 common types of turbo.
1. Non waste-gated the same as original in the oka.
2. External waste-gated. As things evolved and mostly/always tried, tested and proven on the race track there was a need to reduce the boost at certain times so the external waste-gate was produced.
The link has a good basic description and images of external waste-gate as installed.

drivermod.ca/2017/02/20/turbocharging-for-dummies/

3. Internal waste-gate the same as the upgrade it is much simpler to install.

Martyn

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27 Nov 2019 20:23 #551 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
An aircraft engine and it operation cannot be compared to an auto engine.
On take off and landing you run rich but once cruising altitude is reached you turn it down to run lean. At higher altitude the air is thinner and so you dont need as much fuel as at sea level.
Running a petrol engine lean will quickly destroy it, I have done it and it didnt take long.
A diesel engine can run lean with no ill effect that I know of.
Martyn

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28 Nov 2019 01:36 #552 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

mort wrote: I would have no control and the last time I got a speeding ticket was the last V8.
So Rick is this your problem Ha Ha
Martyn

No plans to detune, Mort, as I said that would be spoiling the fun.
There is a Big fire breathing Kenny tipper called Grumpy with a V8 caterpillar that gets round our town.
Roars like a bull with plumes of black smoke from two huge chrome stacks.
It turns heads.
I'm no hoon but every time I see it I want one.

Rick Whitworth: OKA XT 149.
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28 Nov 2019 14:41 #553 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

mort wrote: An aircraft engine and it operation cannot be compared to an auto engine.
On take off and landing you run rich but once cruising altitude is reached you turn it down to run lean. At higher altitude the air is thinner and so you dont need as much fuel as at sea level.
Running a petrol engine lean will quickly destroy it, I have done it and it didnt take long.
A diesel engine can run lean with no ill effect that I know of.
Martyn


It does not differ too much from a car engine, at least if one imagines the ECU being in the form of a person.
Most cars run richer at WOT, and run leaner at cruise, and they also have altitude, barometric, temp and humidity compensation.

Of course an OKA with a perky has no ECU

Reasons to detune include:
1) to be tuned optimally for a higher altitude.
Namely to not be running too rich at a higher altitude.

2) better fuel economy

3) lower emissions.

Upping the boost slightly is sort of like detuning, but the power should not really drop... just the EGT should drop.
Whether the lower EGT (and more air mass) results in a less turbo RPM is a question of sorts.

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04 Dec 2019 19:07 #554 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi Holmz,
Yes you are correct if you are comparing more modern cars the problem is that if you run a petrol engine lean and I dont mean adjusted for altitude then you run the risk of causing damage to the engine.
A petrol engine will run hotter running lean where a diesel wont but a diesel will run hotter running rich where a petrol wont, its only in simple terms.
If I remember my training when I learnt to fly you have to monitor the temps which are head and manifold temps and adjust the fuel accordingly and although it is described as rich or lean its not really its more what is needed to keep within the required temps.
Just to say a petrol engine can run lean and attaching an historical figure to strengthen the comment is fine but it runs the risk of some one then adjusting their fuel to save money or the environment when in fact you run the risk of doing damage which will result in engine rebuild or new engine.
Martyn

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04 Dec 2019 19:38 - 04 Dec 2019 19:40 #555 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Well it was common to run the airplane and find the peak temp... and then 50 degrees ROP and LOP (ratios) are referenced from the ratio where the peak temp occurred.

It does not take a long time to hole a piston...
But it also does not take a long time for an ECU to determine where to run the fuelling, and most also compensate for fuel pressure.
The peak of this technology is the modern F1 engine, where fuel delivery is limited and the only way to get more power is to run LOP.

Of course an F1 car does not represent an OKA too much once we get past 4 wheels, and a Perkins engine also does not well represent an F1 Mercedes or McLaren, or Renault engine once one gets past the obvious intent of pistons, cams, and the engines purpose... and then petrol versus diesel as fuels add further to the divide.

In any case it does not appear that we're all have the same understanding of whether running the dielsel engine lean is possible, and also whether or not it is advisable.
There should be some facts than can augment opinions, if we can find them.

I am pretty sure that lower EGT is better, and that lower EGT happens as one goes leaner in F:A ratio.
And any subsequent lowering of total absolute boost pressure will move the EGTs upwards.
Last Edit: 04 Dec 2019 19:40 by Holmz.

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05 Dec 2019 07:44 - 05 Dec 2019 07:46 #556 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
..................Just to say a petrol engine can run lean and attaching an historical figure to strengthen the comment is fine but it runs the risk of some one then adjusting their fuel to save money or the environment when in fact you run the risk of doing damage which will result in engine rebuild or new engine.

The relevance of Charles Lindbergh's 'contribution' to the aero engine mixture debate was not so much that a petrol engine could safely be run much leaner than was generally accepted by the aero engineering establishment of the day but by their vehement rebuttal, derision and discrediting of the not only famous but expert aviator. A text book example of the hidebound views of armchair warriors triumphing over the expert practical aviator. But 'every dog has its day', Lindberg went to the Pacific and proved his point with real world testing, from memory with a different branch of the American military.
Lindberghs contribution to the allied war effort in the face of entrenched establishment opposition made a real difference. IMO he really was a 'hero' and not only for his flying ability.

But you're right Mort, excessive leaning of the mixture on a petrol engine can quickly lead to the invariably fatal 'holey piston syndrome' :(

Deano :)
Last Edit: 05 Dec 2019 07:46 by Dean and Kaye Howells. Reason: spelling

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05 Dec 2019 07:56 #557 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
....................... I am pretty sure that lower EGT is better, and that lower EGT happens as one goes leaner in F:A ratio.
And any subsequent lowering of total absolute boost pressure will move the EGTs upwards.


So, does this mean, everything else being equal, To decrease EGT's I back off the fuel to run leaner and cooler or do I increase the fuel to get the turbo to run harder and pump more air to make it run leaner and therefore cooler? :huh:

Deano :)

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05 Dec 2019 14:53 - 05 Dec 2019 19:33 #558 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

Dean and Kaye Howells wrote: ...

But you're right Mort, excessive leaning of the mixture on a petrol engine can quickly lead to the invariably fatal 'holey piston syndrome' :(

Deano :)


It is not "excessive leaning" that leads to a problem, it is minimal leaning that produces max EGT and max combustion temps,
A NA engine petrol often runs ~13 to 13.5:1 whereas a turbo will often run ~12:1

Moving them to 14 or 15:1 is deadly.
Moving them to 16:1 or 17:1 is not deadly.

A diesel already runs lean, so one just selects how lean. It is already running LOP.

Dean and Kaye Howells wrote: ....................... I am pretty sure that lower EGT is better, and that lower EGT happens as one goes leaner in F:A ratio.
And any subsequent lowering of total absolute boost pressure will move the EGTs upwards.


So, does this mean, everything else being equal, To decrease EGT's I back off the fuel to run leaner and cooler or do I increase the fuel to get the turbo to run harder and pump more air to make it run leaner and therefore cooler? :huh:

Deano :)


We were talking earlier about setting the waste gate, and whether that should be at 11psi, 17psi, or somewhere else.

If the wastegate is opening up then adding more fuel is not going to result in extra boost, but adjusting the wastegate will result in more boost...

I agree that pressing the right foot down... is adding fuel... and also making the turbo whistle Dixie.


The other way to think of it is...:
- Tune for max power at whatever boost.
- Then adjust the wastegate for more boost.

1) Does the boost go down because the EGT goes down? Or does it stay the same?
2) Does the power go down or does it stay the same?
3) does the boost go down, or does it stay at the higher wastegate setting?
Have we lost anything except for EGT?
Last Edit: 05 Dec 2019 19:33 by Holmz.

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