Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?

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01 May 2020 04:19 - 01 May 2020 04:39 #41 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?

Peter_n_Margaret wrote: Thanks Holmz.
There is a quick realisation that the first bits of weight saving are easy, but the further you need to go, the harder and more expensive it gets.
To help with making sense of competing opportunities I find that it helps to put a price on a weight reduction and the price I propose to use is $50 per kg. No doubt that will get "massaged" as time goes by, but to put that in context taking 500kg out of a 3T cab chassis then gets a "value" of $25,000.
Susi & Ruedi took 1T out of NT001 a while back. I bet it cost lots more than $50,000 though.

And I like the exhaust manifold suggestion. Thanks. That goes onto my list!
Cheers,
Peter


I knew when making my post that it was not being worded tenderly.
But it is an interesting topic, and I believe that you will likely get a better solution with more inputs.
I'll try to be less provacative, and "onya" for reading it as it was intended.

There is some combination of Antoine St. Exupery, "perfection is achieve when there is nothing more to removed"... and the fact a lot of gear may need to be carried.

Some list of the heavy bits, and the vertical height makes sense.
Alloy and carbon fibre are both good for non structural bits.

And then heat treated 4130 is more fatigue resistant to cracking than thick RHS
... but most structures get too large to easily heat treat.
Last Edit: 01 May 2020 04:39 by Holmz.

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01 May 2020 07:47 - 01 May 2020 07:51 #42 by Peter_n_Margaret
Peter_n_Margaret replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?
Thanks for that Deano. Wonderful.
I will be starting again and spending several years on the build. There are many big weight reductions in the body construction that would not be available from a modification of #196, but that is a whole new subject.
For the moment, my concentration is on the cab chassis and here are a few other things on the list, so far....Most of which have been done by others at some time, but I want to see if I can incorporate them all in the same vehicle.

Bumper bar - aluminium or HDPE ("Smartbar" style). No bull bar, no winch or associated bits.
Doors - aluminium skins (would love some all aluminium ones :) ).
Tombstone panels - Aluminium.
Air filter - Fleetguard plastic.
Roof - FRP sandwich panel (flat).
Rims - aluminium (forged if I can find them).
Seats - FRP rally style shells, fixed position.
Motor compartment side panels - Aluminium or HDPE (I need to check the ADRs re fire rating requirements, if any)
Motor compartment hatch - FRP sandwich panel (ditto above).
Other interior sheet metal - Aluminium or HDPE.
Mud flaps (all the way up to the floor) - HDPE (did this on #196 years ago).
Crank battery - Lithium.
Battery tray - delete.
Fuel tank - rotomoulded HDPE.
Front drive shaft safety loop - Mount to diff and use cable loop (done on #196)
Exhaust - delete muffler.
Springs - air bags of parabolics??
Sump guard - Aluminium (done on #196).
Starter motor - replace with geared type (done on #196).
Exhaust manifold - fabricated.

Early days yet. I have not actually started work yet, but will do so soon.
I will be grateful to others who add stuff to the list or know where to source stuff, or just tell me I'm kidding :)
A few big items, lots of little ones that I hope will all add up to a target half a ton.
Cheers,
Peter

Cheers, Peter.
OKA196 tinyurl.com/OKA196xtMotorhome
Mob.0428171214
Last Edit: 01 May 2020 07:51 by Peter_n_Margaret.

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01 May 2020 08:28 #43 by Paul Scherek
Paul Scherek replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?
Peter, I sincerely believe that you will find it a lot easier than that. There are a lot of hard work/expensive things in your list that may well not be needed. Try just doing a spreadsheet, starting with your tare weight as a bare cab/chassis and adding everything else with their weights, and you might be surprised just how easy it will be.
Alloy fuel tanks, things like that can save heaps, and smother the smaller but expensive savings. Good luck, I look forward to your progress.
Cheers, Paul
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01 May 2020 13:15 #44 by Peter_n_Margaret
Peter_n_Margaret replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?
Thanks Paul, I hope you are correct.
I am happy to put some time into small savings that don't cost much. The $50/kg provides an assessment to rate those that cost more.
There is a lot of work, but not so much cost, in making a mould for a rotomoulded bumper bar for instance and it would be about the same weight as an aluminium one (and much tougher). That sort of task interests me, but we will see how the time demands play out.

I put the list up in case others have done some of these things already and are able to supply them to others to save reinventing them.
Cheers,
Peter

Cheers, Peter.
OKA196 tinyurl.com/OKA196xtMotorhome
Mob.0428171214

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01 May 2020 14:07 - 01 May 2020 14:09 #45 by Alister McBride
Alister McBride replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?
Are electric windows a possible weight saving? I also like the idea of getting rid of that OKA specific window winder setup... really quite clever... and stupid at the same time ;) Somebody i know used a commodore setup, a bit fiddly to incorporate apparently but possible.

Holmz - Carbonfibre is an incredible structural material especially when considering it's strength per weight characteristics. However, it is 'directional', so if you use it in the 'wrong' direction it is not as good. Mixed with Kevlar (used in bullet proof vests) it is an incredible combo - strength, stiffness, durability, high fatigue strength. Almost the best structural material/s available.

Regarding doors, as you would have seen, Chris is making alloy doors, i wonder if they might go into production?! I have been looking at the option of making carbon/kevlar fibre doors for a number of years for the above reasons but i fear they may not be coming just yet... got my Sith training to do first... ;)
Last Edit: 01 May 2020 14:09 by Alister McBride.

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01 May 2020 14:42 #46 by Peter_n_Margaret
Peter_n_Margaret replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?
I have talked to Chris. Great stuff, but he is not ready for mass production yet however :(
Would be well over my nominal $50/kg x 18kg saving each too. :(
I doubt electric windows wold save much, but worth an enquiry via someone who has done it.
Cheers,
Peter

Cheers, Peter.
OKA196 tinyurl.com/OKA196xtMotorhome
Mob.0428171214

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01 May 2020 15:25 - 01 May 2020 15:26 #47 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?

Peter_n_Margaret wrote: ...
Rims - aluminium (forged if I can find them).
...
Peter


I would be very interested if you can find any.

Peter_n_Margaret wrote: ...
Early days yet. I have not actually started work yet, but will do so soon.
I will be grateful to others who add stuff to the list or know where to source stuff, or just tell me I'm kidding :)
...
Peter


Here I am sensing you taking the piss and I got sucked in thinking it was serious?

Alister McBride wrote: ...
Holmz - Carbonfibre is an incredible structural material especially when considering it's strength per weight characteristics. However, it is 'directional', so if you use it in the 'wrong' direction it is not as good. Mixed with Kevlar (used in bullet proof vests) it is an incredible combo - strength, stiffness, durability, high fatigue strength. Almost the best structural material/s available.
...


I am pretty aware of that.
Even fibreglass weave is good.
There is a huge difference between a copped matt, that is chopper gunned into a boat mould, in a one boat a day shop... and some racing sail boat which is using unidirectional and woven cloth, with a core layer.

I actually have a roll of cf cloth. And I am looking for some ATL epoxy as the unit quantity jumped up to 100 or 200 litres... so if you have suggestions... then I am interested.
I forget which part I need as I have some of the exoplanet stuff for resin infusion and a vacuum pump... so I need the B part.
Or some place to get smaller units of West Systems.

Making a buck or mould is not too cost effective for a single shell, but if more than one is made, then that work/cost gets spread out.

Basically I am interested.
Last Edit: 01 May 2020 15:26 by Holmz.

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01 May 2020 17:06 - 01 May 2020 17:09 #48 by Peter_n_Margaret
Peter_n_Margaret replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?
I had some American Racing rims on a 4WD F350 BO (before OKA) and I rolled a trailer (with the same rims) at 100kph when it hit a 30+cm rock on the GRR (long story) in 1999. The rim was bent quite badly.
It was successfully re rolled.
I believed at the time that they were forged, not cast.


No piss being took. :)
Cheers,
Peter

Cheers, Peter.
OKA196 tinyurl.com/OKA196xtMotorhome
Mob.0428171214
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Last Edit: 01 May 2020 17:09 by Peter_n_Margaret.

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01 May 2020 18:46 - 01 May 2020 18:48 #49 by Alister McBride
Alister McBride replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?
(Holmz and Al side topic...):woohoo:

Holmz - if you weren't in the middle of Aus that would be handy! I don't think the mould would be too difficult, it's the plan for the layup which would take some development and integrating the 'brackets' for hinges and latches etc. I wouldn't go with the standard winder setup as stated above, would definitely work on an electric setup. After my transition to the dark side my doors are next on the list so i've got plenty of time to think it through! (unless you wanted to get going now...) Probably go with two overlapping halves, how would you suggest joining them? Might be useful to be able to separate them for maintenance... i'm liking this!

I wouldn't bother using infusion, too much hassle, cost and risk for a minimal weight saving and strength increase. For something like this i'd be going the old paintbrush method! lol

You're getting me keener and a mate who designs processes for mass production of the carbon fibre wheels being made in Geelong would be worth a call for his advice! I usually call him re resins but didn't fully understand what you were asking for... Are you after the hardener for the 105, that was often used when i was playing with it, pretty multipurpose. I think i have some old stuff here but WAY out of date, would only use it for non-important stuff or glassing...
Last Edit: 01 May 2020 18:48 by Alister McBride.

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02 May 2020 08:57 #50 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?
Well we p'rolly need a phone chat, as things like"joining overlapping halves, make me think I lost sync.
But can sort through the hardener needed, or was ATL out of Brissy or FBQ.

The idea of a roof that raises on Linak rods does not seem bad, and keeping the roof low and light could make sense.
The engine covers mentioned earlier weight 0.5 SFA, and putting dynamat and thermal Flextime gear on doubles their weight and halves their sound. If one is going to do something, then the heaviest somethings seem important, and the highest somethings seem more important than lower ones.

Conceptually, this does not seem too badly done.
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02 May 2020 12:21 #51 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?

Holmz wrote: Conceptually, this does not seem too badly done.


Genius!!
Vive La France

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02 May 2020 13:18 #52 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?

Rick Whitworth wrote:

Holmz wrote: Conceptually, this does not seem too badly done.


Genius!!
Vive La France


The design and mould costs go down as the number goes up ;)

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02 May 2020 20:08 #53 by Alister McBride
Alister McBride replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?
Incredible setup, the utilisation of space! Could easily be done with sandwich panels. Hows all the gadgets to move things up/down/sideways and the pulley system for the bed, was trying to nut that one out myself. We would be in luxury with the OKA compared to the pokey rear end of a landy... ;)

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02 May 2020 20:18 #54 by OKAPETE
OKAPETE replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?
Or theres this....made in Australia. Highrise Apartment 'Backpack' slideon camper.
Full composite and stainless steel. Weighs in at 620kgs. Lifts up and slides out. This one mounted on trailer can be removed and fitted on trayback. More pics/info available upon request.

Chaplain. Won x One Chaplaincy.
AM SAE-A. AAFRB.

Oka 383. In process.... Cummins 6bt. Allison 2500 6spd. NP205. Dana 80 F & R.
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03 May 2020 06:39 - 03 May 2020 06:41 #55 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?

Alister McBride wrote: ...
Hows all the gadgets to move things up/down/sideways and the pulley system for the bed, was trying to nut that one out myself.
... ;)


Up/down is commonly Linak electrical actuators.
The east/west is normally ball bearing blocks on 1" shafts.
Last Edit: 03 May 2020 06:41 by Holmz.

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03 May 2020 06:45 #56 by OKAPETE
OKAPETE replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?
All the cabling splits on pulleys underneath winds up from one central point tried an proven method been used on camper trailers for years. The bed just slides out and sides fold up into place at the same time.

Chaplain. Won x One Chaplaincy.
AM SAE-A. AAFRB.

Oka 383. In process.... Cummins 6bt. Allison 2500 6spd. NP205. Dana 80 F & R.
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03 May 2020 09:57 #57 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis?

Alister McBride wrote: (Holmz and Al side topic...):woohoo:

Holmz - if you weren't in the middle of Aus that would be handy! I
...

You're getting me keener and a mate who designs processes for mass production of the carbon fibre wheels being made in Geelong would be worth a call for his advice! I usually call him re resins but didn't fully understand what you were asking for... Are you after the hardener for the 105, that was often used when i was playing with it, pretty multipurpose. I think i have some old stuff here but WAY out of date, would only use it for non-important stuff or glassing...


It is H160 hardener for ATL I can get but 35 minute pot life is a bit quick.
So am looking for H162 or H103 ... for mixing with their R118 and R240

You have PM.

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18 May 2020 13:37 #58 by Harry
Harry replied the topic: Tare weight of XT cab/chassis? Light weight motorhome proposal.
In NSW if you want a vehicle to be driven on a car license that is 4490 kg they would like the vehicle to weigh not right on the 4490 but under that weight 4300 kg is the Magic number you are looking for or should I say the engineer that issues the cirtificate is looking for that number
Just food for thought

Oka 045 the WIDE Motorhome 6bt cummins 500 watt solar diesel heating gas cooking up grade LSD front and rear diffs to 4:56 from 4:88 . 320 lt fuel 153 lt fresh water in 3 separate tanks 3 house batteries 1 start battery 176 lt upright fridge/freezer Black dog security
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