Starter Motor

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18 May 2013 20:54 #1 by Outback Jack
Outback Jack created the topic: Starter Motor
Ok I am stuck.

I have rewired the electrics in OKA for the start circuit etc.

Msin reason was that once the OKA was up to operating temp, it would be hard to start and required both batteries to start. Even then it was a hit and miss. It happend on the weekend, even on daul batteries it wouldnt start. It was turning over ok enough, but still needed a jump start from another vehicle.

With the rewire including earths etc its a little better. But still had to switch to dual batteries this afternoon. It turns over ok, maybe a little slow, then it will slow down like a flat battery, then switching to both batteries, it will start.



Batteries was new about 4 months ago.

So I am thinking it may be the starter motor, there is a lot of oil around it. I dont know its age. Its Nipponso geared type. The only other thing I can think of is maybe its low in compression, making it harder to start when warm.


Any clues????

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18 May 2013 21:40 #2 by Craig Bowey
Craig Bowey replied the topic: Starter Motor
try taking the back cover of the starter motor and cleaning internal connections

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19 May 2013 07:13 #3 by TH
TH replied the topic: Starter Motor
Starting cold but not hot can be a sign of an earth problem.

Do you have an earth lead straight to the starter OBJ?

Cheers, Tony

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19 May 2013 07:34 #4 by Hank Onthewater
Hank Onthewater replied the topic: Starter Motor
Sorry OBJ, am not a mechanic, but I thought that when starter-motor is turning the engine should start. If not then (to me) the (main) problem is with the engine. Is there not an 'old' diesel adage: all you need is fuel, air and compression......?

There may be a secondary problem, electrical. Yes, this could be excessive voltage drop (wiring and/or connections), starter-motor itself, or even the alternator: batteries not charged enough.
Hmmm, did you have an add-on charging setup installed? Maybe that is malfunctioning, or causing charging problems, rather than improving it.

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19 May 2013 08:05 - 19 May 2013 08:11 #5 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Starter Motor

Outback Jack wrote: But still had to switch to dual batteries this afternoon. It turns over ok, maybe a little slow, then it will slow down like a flat battery, then switching to both batteries, it will start.


OBJ, causes of this could be:

  • Weak batteries (probably not from your comments).
  • High resistance battery connections, (on the battery(s), in the cables or terminal connections, cables to chassis/starter system, battery switches). After trying to start for a while, check the temperature of all the terminals, carefully, they could be hot. If so you've found a high resistance point). I've had high resistance crimps from cable to terminal.
  • Starter motor internal problem (brushes, winding failure, mechanical problem). If it turns over more slowly now with 2 batteries I would suspect an internal problem.
  • Misalignment of starter teeth to flywheel.

  • Hank is correct, if the fuel/air/mechanical systems are OK the engine should start when rotated. Has it always been this way or is the problem developing?

    Suggest you recheck all the connections first, then the starter motor. Borrowing a spare to replace it with temporarily would eliminate one source of problems.

    Alternatively, with a known good external battery on the ground and a pair of jumper leads, make connections direct from the battery to the starter motor frame and main terminal (ie the one from the existing battery). That will bypass all the heavy current connections.

    David and Janet Ribbans - Oka 148
    Oka148 profile here.
    Visit our technical and travel blogs: here.
    Last Edit: 19 May 2013 08:11 by dandjcr.

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    19 May 2013 08:54 #6 by Outback Jack
    Outback Jack replied the topic: Starter Motor
    Thanks all for comments.

    Batteries are new, however I will get them load tested. I dont think it will be them, as it does it warm not cold.

    Cables/Earth. Due to having the stroke, I cant get down and dirty as much. However I have installed a earth direct from starter bolt mounting bolt to starting battery. Also new cable from starter to battery changeover switch. I also have replaced battery switch with a new one..

    I thought if diesels are down on compression they can be harder to start.

    Looks like I will have to fork out the 500 dollars for a starter and see what happens then. Or maybe get Auto electrician to strip current one down and rebuild it.

    When I have come across this in the past, it has normally been a earth fault or cable fault. But this all has been checked, with some replaced/

    Cheers

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    19 May 2013 09:04 #7 by dandjcr
    dandjcr replied the topic: Starter Motor

    Outback Jack wrote: Or maybe get Auto electrician to strip current one down and rebuild it.


    Suggest you get it checked out before forking out wads of cash on a new starter (shouldn't cost $500 though, less than $400).

    David and Janet Ribbans - Oka 148
    Oka148 profile here.
    Visit our technical and travel blogs: here.

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    19 May 2013 09:15 #8 by Outback Jack
    Outback Jack replied the topic: Starter Motor
    Cheers David,

    Sorry I was including freight etc etc.

    Auto Sparky told that it was a good brand, Nipondenso is what I think he mentioned it was. He did say it was rebuildable where others where not.

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    19 May 2013 10:02 #9 by TH
    TH replied the topic: Starter Motor
    OBJ

    Try running jumper lead from battery to starter as an alternative earth and vise versa with positive to solenoid.

    I have a couple of vehicles with the same problem and it is doing my head in trying to pinpoint the cause

    Cheers, Tony

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    19 May 2013 12:39 #10 by Peter334
    Peter334 replied the topic: Starter Motor
    Ours was the simular it would start hot but not cold as I also had the nipondenso Toyota starter motor and it turned the motor over slow so brought an new one from Paul around $500 the motor turns a lot faster and it starts near straight away cold , as of the alignment the starter fits snug into the adaptor plate , I have and earth from batteries to s/motor , motor to chassie ,I have now a reco starter in the shed , just had the injector pump recod found it was stuffed in side $2500 now it idles so low so its back to Warragul for them to fix idle. cheers peter

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    19 May 2013 13:39 - 19 May 2013 14:06 #11 by Outback Jack
    Outback Jack replied the topic: Starter Motor
    All things point to the starter at this stage. It starts cold OK, Just when its hot is when the problem happens,think there must some sort of high resitance going inside the starter. Its got better with new cables etc.

    Here is a picture of current starter.





    Its been cleaned up outside, and a new bigger cable up to battery selector switch.
    Attachments:
    Last Edit: 19 May 2013 14:06 by Outback Jack.

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    19 May 2013 17:34 #12 by Peter334
    Peter334 replied the topic: Starter Motor
    That's the same as the one I have just taken off seems to be a good starter ,when I did talk to Paul he did say they can loose the c clip off the end off motor that holds the throw out gear and then all hell breaks loose it rumbles around the bell housing and dose some damage ,the new one is a lot more heavy duty and has a bearing on the end so no problems with it falling apart , I hope I did not put you off to much ,cheers peter

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    19 May 2013 17:58 #13 by Outback Jack
    Outback Jack replied the topic: Starter Motor
    Thanks for the info.

    So what is the best starter then? There appears to be several options

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    19 May 2013 19:18 #14 by TH
    TH replied the topic: Starter Motor
    Lot of accessory wires on there. I'd be looking at that as a possible source of the problem.

    Cheers, Tony

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    19 May 2013 19:40 #15 by Outback Jack
    Outback Jack replied the topic: Starter Motor
    Cheers Tony, most of them have been removed.

    The orginal wiring had two fusable links from the alternator to the starter motor post, then out to the batteries.

    This caused a few problems, and it all has been removed. Charging is done with a smart charger at the moment.

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    20 May 2013 07:08 - 20 May 2013 07:23 #16 by dandjcr
    dandjcr replied the topic: Starter Motor

    Outback Jack wrote: So what is the best starter then? There appears to be several options


    OBJ, when our Iskra starter failed in 2011 it turned out to be a winding fault on the rotor winding on the armature, probably a shorted turn due to overheating, and it would rotate slowly when out on the bench but wouldn't turn the engine.

    I managed to find a spare s/h starter which had a different failure and rebuilt a working unit from the parts. I searched the universe in vain for a replacement armature to reassemble the remaining parts as a spare.

    The features you need for the starter are, Perkins mount, 10 tooth, CW drive, and a 12v, 2.8 or 3kw power rating.

    Even then there are options of direct drive or reduction gear drive. The latter is lighter, has more torque but turns more slowly. I've never tried one but others have them, I'm happy with direct drive and our Oka starts first turn, every time.

    The orientation of the starter solenoid can also vary. Ours was very close to the exhaust pipe, which might have lead to early solenoid failure, but the s/h frame I used has the solenoid below the motor, more exposed to the elements but away from the exhaust.



    A couple of possibilities I came across during my search (and I'm still looking for a potential replacement) are the Iskra (now called Letrika) IM315 and IM527 . I didn't find a Bosch equivalent but there may well be one.

    Also this from Auto Electrics Australia .

    JAS Oceania and Ashdown Ingram would be worth a call too.

    There are some Chinese equivalents available from the " Ningbo Hi-Tech Altering Motor Co " but I don't know of a supplier.

    David and Janet Ribbans - Oka 148
    Oka148 profile here.
    Visit our technical and travel blogs: here.
    Last Edit: 20 May 2013 07:23 by dandjcr.

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    20 May 2013 09:29 #17 by Outback Jack
    Outback Jack replied the topic: Starter Motor
    Thanks David, I will see how I go with it all.

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    20 May 2013 11:07 - 20 May 2013 11:10 #18 by Alister McBride
    Alister McBride replied the topic: Starter Motor
    OBJ, i've experienced problems like this and it was the starter cables. When they got hot the resistance increased and it would crank really slowly but wouldn't start! I notice you've replaced the +ve from starter to battery switch, try just taking that new cable straight to the +ve terminal of the battery and see what happens. If it still does the same thing it's the starter. They should be under $300 plus freight. Paul Knott has them or TJM Deisel. I got a gear reduction one from Paul and it is definitely stronger than my old nippondenso one (toyota starter from a 1Hz engine)...
    Good luck!
    Cheers, Alister
    Last Edit: 20 May 2013 11:10 by Alister McBride.

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    20 May 2013 11:15 #19 by Outback Jack
    Outback Jack replied the topic: Starter Motor
    Cheers, I havent heard of TJM Diesel before, I will look them up.

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    20 May 2013 12:27 - 20 May 2013 12:27 #20 by dandjcr
    dandjcr replied the topic: Starter Motor
    Alister, could it be you were referring to PJL Diesel ?

    Even if not, they are worth a look. They sell a large range of electrical gear including starters and alternators. My bugbear is that they don't have an Adelaide outlet but I have had good service from them and their site has a lot of useful info.

    David and Janet Ribbans - Oka 148
    Oka148 profile here.
    Visit our technical and travel blogs: here.
    Last Edit: 20 May 2013 12:27 by dandjcr.

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