OKA 413 _ A New Hope

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05 Dec 2019 08:53 #41 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope
I can't really help you much here Rick. I've no doubt an alloy carrier frame can take the static load of the vehicle spare(s). The problem I see is the vibration/load variance on the frame and mounts when traveling. One thing aluminium is very good at (apart from being light) is its ability to crack especially when repeatedly flexed. I've seen fatigue cracks on the factory steel mounts of these frames so I'd reckon a design re think would be needed for an alloy replacement.

One variant I considered was to build a simple swing out tubular steel frame, basically triangular, hinged to the rear corner vertical (for want of a better name) and anchored to the transverse RHS below the rear window panel. The frame would have incorporated a load taking skid resting on the bumperette similar to the original Oka design. I would have incorporated a gantry similar to the one I have now and ditched the factory metal work. A lot simpler than the factory design and much lighter. In the end I ditched the whole rear door so didn't need a fold out carrier.

I've often wondered if there was a method to Oka's madness in making such a heavy spare wheel carrier. Oka had a lot of problems getting the front axle weight down to a manageable level. The front axle load rating was increased from 2400 Kg to 2800 Kg for the LT bus (don't know for the XT) which was a real stretch for the already heavily loaded Dana 60 axle. Rear axle load rating was increased by 175 Kg to 6000 Kg. Hanging an extra 250 Kg (approx.) worth of wheels and metalwork 1 1/2 metres behind the rear wheels would have taken a hell of a lot of weight off the front axle.

Deano :)
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05 Dec 2019 11:17 - 05 Dec 2019 11:26 #42 by Peter_n_Margaret
Peter_n_Margaret replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope
#196 has 2 @ 305/70R19.5s (at 80kg each) hanging on the back.

The H frame (that they are attached to) is made from 100 x 25 x 3mm tube and is attached to the body chassis (not the vehicle chassis) at the bottom and to some strong points that I built into the body at the top.
The winch (was mechanical, recently replaced with electric) is in a fixed position and the cable runs up through the crane tube via a pulley at the end. It pivots around 180 degrees to pick up either wheel.
Apart from the recent failure of the original 5:1 clutch winch (which I drove with a battery drill) it has been 100% successful for 15 years.

EDIT. A early pic of the mounting frame without wheels mounted.

Cheers,
Peter

Cheers, Peter.
OKA196 tinyurl.com/OKA196xtMotorhome
Mob.0428171214
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03 Jan 2020 14:38 #43 by Harry
Harry replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope
I just took off the aluminum bull bar that
Chris from Kununurra makes a very good replica I must say any way while it was off I thought I would weigh it ......., it came in at 27 kg yes twenty seven kg gotta be happy with that and the big plus with that is that one person can manhandle the bar

Oka 045 the WIDE Motorhome 6bt cummins 500 watt solar diesel heating gas cooking up grade LSD front and rear diffs to 4:56 from 4:88 . 320 lt fuel 153 lt fresh water in 3 separate tanks 3 house batteries 1 start battery 176 lt upright fridge/freezer Black dog security

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04 Jan 2020 07:37 #44 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope
Yes, it's pretty good.

Mine even comes with an inscription.



Deano :)
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30 Jan 2020 20:17 - 30 Jan 2020 20:30 #45 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope
Performance Tuning

There's no doubt the Cummins performance is an improvement on the Pekins but having transplanted an engine from a mid '90's Dodge Ram into the Oka is no guarantee that it is working optimally.

The ex Ram Cummins 6BT was originally intercooled and mated to an automatic gearbox. In the Oka it is currently non intercooled and mated to a manual gearbox. It has the original factory non waste gated H1C Holset turbo, similar in design to the Oka factory turbo.

When I rebuilt/prepared the 6BT for the Oka I had the injector pump and injectors rebuilt/refurbished and the result was a smooth running more powerful engine.

I'm about to embark on some engine/transmission improvements and decided that a measured performance 'base line' would be a good idea to measure my 'improvements' against so contacted AG Diesel here in Melbourne (Clayton Sth.), the same people that did the original injector pump rebuild to do a dyno run. I asked them to see if they could improve the turbo spool time and low end performance. My tune 'priorities' were 1/. reliability, 2/. efficiency and 3/. power, I was pretty happy with the vehicles overall power I just wanted it 100-200 RPM sooner.

Here's the result.




To say the result exceeds my expectations is an understatement.

The penciled figures at the bottom are my theoretical figures relating to 5th gear and engine RPM. The Dyno run is done in 4th gear, 1:1 ratio. The diff ratio is 4.10 and the wheels/tyres are 34.5" 315/75R16.

Overall power gain is just over 30% which I find pretty amazing given there's nothing to be done with the turbo. It's all (presumably) done with fine tuning the injector pump. No excessive smoke and full on acceleration up to 2500 rpm is very smooth.

EGT's (post turbo) are the same as before which to my thinking are a tad high ie. level cruising at 100 kph in 5th (day time) around 400-430 C so I can see an intercooler in the very near future.

I did a full on power run (fully loaded) up a nearby highway steep hill. I hit it at 100 kph in 5th, backing off over the top at 115, not quite flat to the floor with 22 lb. of boost. EGT's peaked at 600 C. Just because I could :)

Whilst additional power was not my first priority I'm certainly getting more power sooner as requested. eg. the power I was getting previously at 2000 rpm I'm now getting at 1600 rpm. The trick will be going light on the right foot. :)

Deano :)
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31 Jan 2020 05:53 #46 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope

Dean and Kaye Howells wrote: Performance Tuning
...
EGT's (post turbo) are the same as before which to my thinking are a tad high ie. level cruising at 100 kph in 5th (day time) around 400-430 C so I can see an intercooler in the very near future.
...
:)


^nice result^

I conjecture that lower in the intake temp will have little effect upon the exhaust temp because of the temperature... more as the lower intake temp increases the intake density, which then raises the AFR.

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31 Jan 2020 06:12 #47 by Peter and Sandra OKA 374
Peter and Sandra OKA 374 replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope
Holmz that wasn't my experience when fitting the water to air intercooler to my vehicle, the drop in intake temps dropped the EGT's by 150 C at full throttle under load which in turn meant that the fuel could be wound up a wee bit more to give more power ;-))
The results I posted in the thread about fitting the intercooler were in milder 25C weather and it is interesting how much both ambient temps and altitude affect EGT's, both increase EGT's to varying degrees and both together create a need to drive by the EGT gauge.
Just north of us we have the Barrington Tops and the road climbs to 1600 odd metres over about 20km from a couple of hundred metres above sea level, climbing that in cool wet weather see's EGT's climbing steadily as elevation is gained but within limits. Climbing the same road in 30 degree plus humid weather sees a need to back off by about halfway up as EGT's climb into the too high zone which isn't hard to do due to the narrow winding road.
Our current hot 30+ temps and high humidity also see an increase in intake temps of approximately 15C at highway (100-105) through the intercooler so even just the hotter ambient temps make EGT's increase.
Ralley reckons a 4" exhaust and a bigger intercooler will keeps temps down better but it goes ok now and returns good economy for it's weight and aerodynamics or lack thereof.

OKA 374 LT Van, converted to camper/motorhome,
400ah Lithiums, 1100w solar, diesel cooking heating and HWS,
Cummins 6BT, Allison 6 speed auto, Nissan transfer.
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01 Feb 2020 11:21 #48 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope
Air density is what affect AFR, and AFR is what affect EGT.
So it is the absolute manifold pressure and the intake temp that a primary drivers, and the humidity can suck up something 5+ % of the air at 40C and tropics humidity.

Whether one is at 45c or 20c ambient, the inter cooler reduces the post turbo temp, and the post turbo temp is primarily a function of boost more than 20-40c intake temps... (I think).

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01 Feb 2020 15:41 #49 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope
I've got to agree with you there Peter.

As a rule I don't drive at night but last year on the last day of our holiday I drove through and we arrived home around 10 pm. What I found 'amazing' was the difference in day time vs. night time EGT's. It would have been mid 20's during the day and around 10 degrees cooler in the evening. The difference in EGT's was around 100 - 150 degrees C for the same 95-100 kph flat highway driving.
Here's hoping an effective water/air intercooler will deliver a similar result :)

Installation should be easy enough, I'll mount the intercooler similar to yours above the engine but I'll use the engine coolant for the intercooler in a similar way to the factory water/air setup.

One of the 'problems' I have is that #413 runs very cool with it's 5 core radiator and the water temp rarely rises above the thermostat 82 C necessitating a blind in front of the radiator to run optimally even in relatively hot weather. Even in the hottest of weather I can easily hold the radiator to engine block coolant return pipe without difficulty. I can't remember the actual temp when I measured this. Currently with the Oka purring away at 1000 RPM for the last hour or so, sitting on the thermostat with an ambient temp of 20 degrees the return coolant temp is 26 degrees. The (hopefully) only thing I've got no clue about here is the coolant flow rate when connecting the intercooler coolant lines from the engine coolant inlet and to the rear of the head (as per Cummins factory) or if at this stage I should really care, so basically I'll just 'suck it and see'.

Deano :)
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01 Feb 2020 18:46 #50 by Peter and Sandra OKA 374
Peter and Sandra OKA 374 replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope
Deano I suspect that in standard form the 6BTA (A for aftercooler) engines usually had quite cool coolant coming back into the engine from the radiator so diverting this cold flow through the aftercooler before returning it to the engine is means the aftercooler is quite efficient at cooling the intake air. I know when I initially thought about fitting an aftercooler (I have one in the shed) I initially thought that it wouldn't be as good as a remote intercooler due to the assumption that returning coolant was hot when in fact it is well below engine temp but possibly not as low as we would like.
The big problem with fitting the aftercooler is the cost of the new injector lines required.

OKA 374 LT Van, converted to camper/motorhome,
400ah Lithiums, 1100w solar, diesel cooking heating and HWS,
Cummins 6BT, Allison 6 speed auto, Nissan transfer.

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04 Feb 2020 09:43 #51 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope

Holmz wrote: .....................................................Whether one is at 45c or 20c ambient, the inter cooler reduces the post turbo temp, and the post turbo temp is primarily a function of boost more than 20-40c intake temps... (I think).


No argument here (from a theoretical viewpoint). It's my understanding that the main contributor to inlet air temp is from compressing it and it is also true that cooler, denser night time air is a significant contributor in lowering EGT's. From this I conclude that the heat energy generated from compression is a contributing factor to EGT whether directly or by varying AFR.

This pretty well sums up my knowledge of thermodynamics.

It's worth noting (I think) that other non intercooled 6BT powered Okas I know of have Holset HX35W waste gated turbos and run approx. 100 C less EGT's than I do.
The non waste gated Holset H1C turbo that I have is very common on 160-210 HP 6BT's. One modification mentioned on US sites is to reduce its turbine blades from 12 to 10 thus lightening the rotational mass and offering less exhaust gas resistance. This is claimed to reduce EGT's and improve spool time.

Deano :)

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04 Feb 2020 20:06 #52 by Ralley
Ralley replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope
As much as I’m a fan of a really efficient intercooler. I think that to a point a really efficient turbo that spools early can cover up the lack of cool air from an intercooler. There are times when I’m pulling away fully loaded and I don’t push it that I can see high egt’s. This is at that point where there isn’t enough fuel to spoil the turbo but enough to over fuel. This is at lower RPM and with boost at maybe only 10psi. With more right boot the boost comes on strong and the egt’s drop before they rise again if the foot goes to the floor. Sometimes sticking the boot into it lowers the egt’s even on a hill. For those with a manual box not letting it lug is your friend. I think that if your going to be pushing it on a hill or sand. The revs should be high enough to get full boost. With or without an intercooler if the tune is right. I was told once that anything above 15psi you should have an intercooler and below that the difference is not as noticeable.
I’ve also done a lot of research on what guys are doing in the states and as a result put a HX35W on mine with the intercooler. But the thing that can be a bit deceiving is that they tend be happy to make power at a lot higher rpm than what I want to do. Some of the guys are running well beyond 4000rpm. I would rather make most of my power before 2000rpm. So finding the right setup on the Cummins is a bit of a challenge.
Rob
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08 Feb 2020 10:12 #53 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope
Thanks for the input Rob, it can all get a bit confusing really :)

It's a bit of a toss up really. What will give me my best 'bang for buck' improvement EGT wise an intercooler or a different turbo. I've got a non waste gated HX35 from a 210 HP 6BT which has bigger 'wheels' than the H1C so might swap it over just to see if there's a difference. The HX35 replaced the H1C as the factory non waste gated turbo in the mid '90's. By all accounts bigger and better with a larger thrust bearing.
I've no doubt the correct HX35W would give much better results but there must be a hundred or more variants of this turbo. eg. HX35 is a bit like saying 'Holden Commodore' and HX35W like saying 'Holden Commodore 6 Cylinder'. It gets more confusing when there's multiple part numbers for identical turbo's. Definitely not go and buy the first HX35W you see advertised.
There's plenty of cheap Chinese knock offs at very cheap prices (compared to genuine Holset) but I'm pretty wary of these as they typically have pretty bad/cheap bearings especially the thrust bearing which incorporates the oiling gallery(s) which are generally undersized compared to the original. It may be worth while to get one of these cheap knock offs and replace the bearings with a genuine Holset repair kit (about $50), but I'd not like my engine to be the Guinea Pig :(

Similarly with (water-air) inter-coolers, the 'Frozenboost.com' stuff is pretty impressive and some of their products are re sold here by various companys, one just 20 minutes down the road from me. Finding the right one is the problem as space is pretty tight above the engine, 12" max width due to the gear linkage which gives zero wriggle room for most of the suitably sized frozen boost products. CXRacing make a good range 11" wide which would be a perfect fit but I'm a bit wary of their quality, Plazmaman stuff looks the goods but very expensive. The one that looks to be the best for me is this one.

Long Flow Water/Air Intercooler

Mounted diagonally across the engine the output can connect directly via one short 90 degree bend to the inlet manifold with the intercooler inlet pretty well above the turbo outlet :)
This arrangement should give me the least restricted air flow compared with other setups. What I'm unsure about though, is it big enough to make a real difference ?

Aah well, it's all "grist to the mill" :)

The American sites are a wealth of information here but as Rob notes they all appear to have this focus on HP. I've found none that consider reliability, longevity, fuel efficiency or any of the other criteria that I consider more important. If what you're after is a fire breathing, fuel guzzling, re build every time you go out, liable to blow up/melt at any moment 400 HP (minimum) behemoth then there's a wealth of information and parts out there. If what you want is knowledge for a bit more sedate/sensible application then you're in trouble. Apparently 'bigger is better' in the US. :(

Deano :)

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08 Feb 2020 11:41 #54 by Harry
Harry replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope
It is all a very confusing is it not and which way to go
I guess it all depends on the $$$$$
What I would like to know really is does more boost more horsepower come at a price
At the moment old Oka 045 6bt cummins with a waist gate turbo
In gives me 1000 km out of 160 liters of diesel sitting on just under 2000 rpm with 4:56 diff ratio and 305 x 19.5 tyres on it
My boost goes up to 16 psi max
What I would like to know is if I have 28 pound boost does that mean I need more fuel to make that boost which comes down to my fuel consumption also going down
I can not seem to find that answer anywhere from anyone !!!!!!!! ????????

Oka 045 the WIDE Motorhome 6bt cummins 500 watt solar diesel heating gas cooking up grade LSD front and rear diffs to 4:56 from 4:88 . 320 lt fuel 153 lt fresh water in 3 separate tanks 3 house batteries 1 start battery 176 lt upright fridge/freezer Black dog security

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08 Feb 2020 17:04 #55 by Peter Davis
Peter Davis replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope
Hi Dean with your lighter wheel set have you noticed a change in fuel economy and braking performance.

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08 Feb 2020 18:23 - 08 Feb 2020 18:25 #56 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope

Harry wrote: It is all a very confusing is it not and which way to go
I guess it all depends on the $$$$$
What I would like to know really is does more boost more horsepower come at a price
At the moment old Oka 045 6bt cummins with a waist gate turbo
In gives me 1000 km out of 160 liters of diesel sitting on just under 2000 rpm with 4:56 diff ratio and 305 x 19.5 tyres on it
My boost goes up to 16 psi max
What I would like to know is if I have 28 pound boost does that mean I need more fuel to make that boost which comes down to my fuel consumption also going down
I can not seem to find that answer anywhere from anyone !!!!!!!! ????????


Usually one changes the turbine or compressor to get more boost at either the WOT side, or the low throttle side.(pick one)
You cannot just look at the turbo to get more boost, it needs more exhaust volume or temp, to increase turbine RPM.

If it was making boost, and the 16psi was limited by the wastegate, then keeping the waste gate closed will make more boost, or could over rev the turbine, which also over revs the compressor.

I my case I am trying to figure out why I am only making 11psi of boost with the wastegate tube disconnected, for any throttle position from medium to WOT... if it was 16psi it seems like it would be better than 11psi.
Last Edit: 08 Feb 2020 18:25 by Holmz.

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08 Feb 2020 18:42 - 08 Feb 2020 19:00 #57 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope
Hi Peter, too early to tell about fuel consumption as I've only done short runs since changing the wheels and embarking on my mini weight reduction 'crusade' :) But what is very noticeable is the handling and general drivability, much smoother ride with the 315/75R16's. Part of this is due to the reduction in overall weight especially un-sprung weight (tyres & rims) and part due to the greater flexibility of the 315/75R16 (34") tyres. Reloading the vehicle initially to attain more load on the rear axle than the front made a big difference in how the Oka drives.
I briefly ran the same tyres and alloy rims several years ago in lieu of my 'normal' 305/70R19.5's (36") on steel rims when I still had the Perky and the difference was remarkable. I still reckon the 'perfect' tyre/rim combo for a factory Perky into std. 4.88 diffs is 34" tyres on alloy rims. The weight reduction and slightly lower gearing with the smaller tyres better suits the Perky IMO.

I did a fully loaded (ready to explore the Amazon mode) weigh in earlier this week with 320 litres of fuel, 120 litres of water, 2 spare wheels and enough spares to practically rebuild the Oka along with a months supply of food and beverages (excluding perishables) and came in at 5280 Kg. (2480 Kg front / 2800 Kg rear). I've still got a way to go weight wise though it gets harder once the easy wins are done. I reckon I've got another 150Kg I can safely lose which will bring my 'normal' cruising weight to under 5 tonne which is my goal.

Regarding braking, directional stability is noticeably better, particularly under heavy braking, as the front doesn't dip/rear lift as readily which is probably more to do with moving approx.1/2 tonne from the front axle to the rear axle than overall weight reduction.

Deano :)
Last Edit: 08 Feb 2020 19:00 by Dean and Kaye Howells.

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08 Feb 2020 22:56 - 08 Feb 2020 23:01 #58 by Dean and Kaye Howells
Dean and Kaye Howells replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope

Harry wrote: What I would like to know is if I have 28 pound boost does that mean I need more fuel to make that boost which comes down to my fuel consumption also going down


You're not going to have 28 lb boost unless you chose to. Your turbo is waste gated, what this means is that it's got a 'pressure relief valve' which in your case is set to 16 lb. (assuming there's enough fuel being burnt to create 16 lb pressure so that the pressure relief valve (waste gate) can open to regulate the pressure) in the first place. You can tell by sticking the boot into it and watching the boost pressure reach and remain at 16 lb whilst you continue to accelerate. This is the main difference between your turbo and mine which doesn't have a waste gate, I stick the boot into it and the boost pressure keeps increasing until I back off. In my case the maximum boost pressure is a function of how much fuel I can dump into the engine, in yours it's a function of what your waste gate 'relief valve' is set to. At least that's how I understand it. :)

Fuel consumption is a different story. The amount of fuel delivered to the engine is determined by the injector pump which can be adjusted to 'inject' differing amounts of fuel under differing conditions the main one being right foot pressure :) The injector pump and turbo work together to achieve an optimal air/fuel ratio (AFR) for the efficient operation of the engine. The greater the amount of fuel injected the greater the amount of air (boost) required to maintain optimal AFR and the greater the power output.
The theoretical most efficient AFR for an engine is called the Stoichiometric AFR which is 14.7 to 1 for petrol and 14.6 to 1 for a diesel engine. I say theoretical because the optimal high speed AFR (at cruising speed/revs) for a diesel engine is between 20 and 24 to 1, the 'nominal' figure being around 22 to 1.

On the dyno tuning results I posted earlier the High Speed AFR figures are shown on the right with the lower graphs being my before (green) and after (red) results. Looking at the 'before' graph you'll see that this optimal range of AFR coincides with a rev range of approx. 1550 to 1875 rpm with maximum power of 114 HP attained at approx. 2050 rpm with an AFR of 26. After tuning the optimal AFR range now covers the more useful rev range of 1650 to 2300 rpm with an AFR of 22 coinciding with a maximum power of 150 HP at a more useful 2000 rpm. A much better result. :)

How this will affect fuel consumption I don't know. All things being equal I would expect better fuel consumption as the engine will be running more often in the optimal AFR range but as I now have more power available using it will burn more fuel so who knows, "swings and round-abouts". It's worth noting that a diesel engine can run without damage with a High Speed AFR as high as 60 to 1, according to info I have read.

There you go Harry, I don't know if this makes it any less or more confusing but that's my understanding of it all.

Deano :)
Last Edit: 08 Feb 2020 23:01 by Dean and Kaye Howells.

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09 Feb 2020 07:37 #59 by Harry
Harry replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope
Thanks Dean still cloudy but i see a little blue in there actually a little more blue than I did before

Oka 045 the WIDE Motorhome 6bt cummins 500 watt solar diesel heating gas cooking up grade LSD front and rear diffs to 4:56 from 4:88 . 320 lt fuel 153 lt fresh water in 3 separate tanks 3 house batteries 1 start battery 176 lt upright fridge/freezer Black dog security

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09 Feb 2020 12:07 #60 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: OKA 413 _ A New Hope

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