Front axle seals/upgrade/repair
31 Oct 2012 19:44 #1
by dandjcr
David and Janet Ribbans - Oka 148
Oka148 profile here.
Visit our technical and travel blogs: here.
dandjcr created the topic: Front axle seals/upgrade/repair
Forum Home > OKA Maintenance > Front axle seals/upgrade/repair
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
First hurdle crossed - there being no water in the diff instead of the grey sludge I was expecting.
Has been water in the DS hub and the bearings are rumbly but that also expected.
Main reason for work is to replace the inner axle seals which started leaking at the end of the Simpson trip last year so intend doing the axle upgrade at the same time.
I was hoping my diff was the same batch as David's because he reported that the diff carrier just fell out once the saddles were removed.
Mine certainly doesn't seem to be about to fall out any time soon - and it may be that "just fell out" isn't quite accurate and certain persuasions had to be applied - and I wondered what others did to coax things along.
Is a diff spreader the only way and is the spreading force such that something could be made up, or is the genuine special tool the only way.
Thanks
Tony
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 19, 2012 at 4:46 PM Flag Quote & Reply
joseph baz
Member
Posts: 331
Tony,The diff spreader is certanly a good help but you can still remove the carrier ,the trick is to pull it absolutely aquare otherways it will jam,your diff may have been assembled with a spreader a bit too spreaded out,doing the work in situ is a bastard the best of times,the carrier is really heavy and hard to handle,I ussually drop it on 4 of the gardening kneeling pads to cushion the fall (that is the easy part) refitting can be hard but you have to be patient,mark and keep evryrhing separate as per rh and lh,check everything else while you are at it
Cheers,joe
April 19, 2012 at 5:21 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
"Pull" is the hard bit. Doesn't seem to be too much to get more than a couple of fingers each side.
See on some web manuals thaat the procedure involves "levering the carrier out with two pry bars", so maybe I just need some heavier artillerythan my two largest screwdrivers.
Plenty of RHS left from building the subframe so will be able to make a spreader if necessary - especially if I can find a nice clear image to see the details
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Pete Fox
Member
Posts: 140
Tony
One example
--
Peter Fox
OKA 266 Multi-cab.
Photobucket album
April 19, 2012 at 7:51 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Pete Fox
Member
Posts: 140
And then there is always the brute force method
--
Peter Fox
OKA 266 Multi-cab.
Photobucket album
April 19, 2012 at 8:06 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Don't laugh, I have thought of a few ways to do it in a similar fashion. There is a video showing how to do it by forcing a wad of rag between the pinion gear and then turn it see - sounds a bit more controlled than the first method which involves a very real risk of having the carrier doing serious damage to the winch vehicle or driver.
What either method doesn't mention is how to get the carrier back afterwards.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 19, 2012 at 8:26 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Thanks Peter. That looks easy enough to make up. What I couldn't work out from poor images was how to keep the pegs down in the recesses but that photo shows it clearly.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 19, 2012 at 8:41 PM Flag Quote & Reply
frank
Member
Posts: 59
Help me here, I can't understand how that blue frame 'spreader' is going to help get the diff out?
--
Frank & Christine Thomas
April 19, 2012 at 10:17 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Pete Fox
Member
Posts: 140
Frank
the case keeps preload on the bearings. A very slight stretch of the case releases the preload and out it comes. Or at least tat is what I understand to be the case
Pete
--
Peter Fox
OKA 266 Multi-cab.
Photobucket album
April 19, 2012 at 10:28 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
The carrier - the cage in the middle - is a very tight fit between the 'sides' of the diff housing. Some seem to be an interferrence fit.
That frame engages into two recesses, one each side of the opening - and the screw on one end of the frame forces the sides of the frame - and hence those dimples apart, making the mouth of the diff gape a fraction wider - 15 thou - so the interferrence fit is now a loose fit and the carrier "falls out"
Having a look by torchlight - as one does - it would require some pretty weird framework to work with the axle on the vehicle - because of the spring on the drivers side.
I might give the stuff-a-rag-in-the-gear-and-lever-the-bloody-thing-out method a try first. Failing that, I might just remount the stub axles and brakes and put the wheels back on and leave the axles and hubs out (can I do this) and take it to my favourite overcharging heavy vehicle mechanic in Taree. He does at least know what an OKA is as he has two customers with OKAs. Also good at improvision. He took the gearbox and clutch out of my 40' rear engine beast out in the yard with no pit or hoist and I thought that was pretty good.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 19, 2012 at 10:29 PM Flag Quote & Reply
frank
Member
Posts: 59
thanks, so it actually does spread the diff by a fraction (hopefully within the steel's elastic limits).
Tony, why does the carrier need to come out (its not for the axle seals is it?), are you changing something else within it?
--
Frank & Christine Thomas
April 19, 2012 at 10:39 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
The axle seals are right next to the diff and even with the carrier out it is still a bit of a job getting the new seals in nice and straight. David has an article on how to do it and I was hoping mine would go the saame way - except the carrier is tighter to get out.
see www.couchsurfing.org/group_read.html?gid=512&post=9548806 for story on reassembly
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 19, 2012 at 11:11 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Maybe I should have read David's axle reconstruction part 2 a bit more carefully because I see he says "Had the diff carrier been a press fit requiring a diff spreader to remove it, I doubt that it could have been replaced in situ and the axle would have had to be removed first.'
I'm doing this job on a gravel driveway and I really don't have the gear or the strength or staamina to get the axle off safely. Maybe my options are limited to doing the 35 spline upgrade and refitting everything including the bearings and seals for practice but leave the inner seals as they are, put it all back together and get the mechanic to pull it all to bits to replace the inner seals. Bit of a cow but might be the best smart solution.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 19, 2012 at 11:34 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Dandj
Member
Posts: 367
Tony, I'm not sure an article on camping in Iceland will assist with diff removal.
If you meant my articles, part 1 is here, and part 2 is here.
And yes, the diff did just fall out once I had removed the bearing caps. I would try prying it out if it's stiff, using a spreader seems awful difficult unless the axle is out and standing on a frame. I only took the diff out to replace a spider gear with a broken tooth and took the opportunity to change the seals.
It may be that your inner seals are OK anyway. I had a front axle oil leak on a trip last year (with new seals) which turned out to be a blocked axle breather. Pressure built up inside when hot and the oil was forced past the seals.
The breather is a right angle fitting on top of the diff. It's a push fit thingy with barbs, it doesn't screw in. Lever it out and then tap it back in when clean with some gasket goo on the barbs to seal it.
2 pry bar method. I would leave the bearing caps loosely bolted so it doesn't fall on the ground if it pops out.
--
David and Janet Ribbans, Oka 148
April 19, 2012 at 11:42 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Replaced that wrong link twice and it is still there. No idea where it came from.
I'll check the diff breather anyway now that you mention it but given the amount of wading we did in mud soup both in the Simpson just before Big Red and dozens of wades down the Birdsville track, I figured the slush just got too much for the seals because there was definitely oil dripping out at one stage- but I was surprised that the oil seemed quite clean. Also the axle tubes did have mud in them but it wasn't oily.
Might look rosier tomorrow. I guess if I do get the carrier out, it might be possible to use the carrier retaining bolts and saddles- or longer ones - to carefully pull the carrier back into position provided any shims can be pre-located. Wishful thinking..
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 20, 2012 at 12:09 AM Flag Quote & Reply
Dandj
Member
Posts: 367
Tony there were no shims in mine as far as I know. Maybe that's why it fell out so easily. The only points of contact are the bearing caps at each end so there shouldn't be too much friction to overcome.
But if the diff looks clean and and no muddy sludge, maybe you never got any water in the diff housing anyway. My crown wheel had a bit of rust on one side, since it sits doing nothing for much of the time but no mud. Draining the oil will have removed any sludge.
Removing the diff is a big job just for seals which may not need changing, wheel bearings would be more of a worry.
If you proceed, see the 2 pry bar photo and note I added to my previous post.
Blocked breather maintenance in the Great Victoria Desert east of Laverton. Also blow out the breather tube with compresed air. If the airways are clear, sudden cooling in water should then suck in air rather than water.
--
David and Janet Ribbans, Oka 148
April 20, 2012 at 12:40 AM Flag Quote & Reply
joseph baz
Member
Posts: 331
Tony,Don't forget that if you're using the spreader will need a dial gauge to make sure that the spreading doesn't exceed .015",don't keep on spreading or you may damage the housing.
Cheers,Joe
April 20, 2012 at 5:39 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Thanks all. Encouraged by your positive attitude n and armed with the sum total of your knowledge, I got up at a faily late hour, girded my loins etc etc and crawled underneaath for another go.
Lo and behold, it did just about fall out - or would have if the saddles weren't there as aa safety net. It didn't exactly fall but didn't need muxh of a push before it started sliding out. WooHooo!!!!!.
As David said, it only just comes out between the housing and the steering rod, but it does come out. Immediately wrapped in white cloth, it now occupies pride of place on my newly cleared and cleaned bench.
Had to make do with a length of 10mm rod instead of the 12mm recommended by David, and with no sign of a washer large enough, I found that one of my holesaw blades mounted on the end was just the right size. Solven-soaked cloth over the holesaw blade was aa perfect snug fit in the bore so I spend a very long time cleaning the tubes out until the shone like a rifle bore.
Then came fitting the new seals. Had a few goes using the old seals and found that something I discovered a very long time ago still applies. That was that banging away in the dark trying to get a large object into a smaller hole just doesn't work very well. Much better to screw it in slowly and gently - so I stopped trying David's bash it in method (using a vacuum pipe adaptor I had left over from a job 30 years ago), and used the threaded rod blocked on the outside of the axle and extending in to the diff housing to pull the seal in using a bit of bar pulling against the PVC adaptor.
I figured that if the seal started going crooked, I could just slacken the nut and edge the bar over to the side that needed to catch up.
Just didn't work like it should have so reverted to the bash method and eventually had both seals in place.
Since then spent a long time cleaning up the hubs and other bits and pieces and tomorrow will check all the bearings to see if the should be replaced. Vehicle has only dont 100k so guess they should be OK for a few more km, especially since I always carry spares and tools to change them on the road if necessary.
Swap the UJs and outer shafts over tomorrow and once I get a couple of seals that might not be in my spares box, should be back on the road pretty fast.
Glad I don't have to put the old locking hubs back on even though they will probably clean up OK. Had to resort to using a starbit to get most of the cap screws out and there was some water inside. New hub has O-rings on the cap screws plus the large O-ring at the back so should be a bit more water resistant than the old model.
Glad I didn't need to make up a spreader to fit while the axle was still on the vehicle.
Thanks
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 20, 2012 at 7:36 PM
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
First hurdle crossed - there being no water in the diff instead of the grey sludge I was expecting.
Has been water in the DS hub and the bearings are rumbly but that also expected.
Main reason for work is to replace the inner axle seals which started leaking at the end of the Simpson trip last year so intend doing the axle upgrade at the same time.
I was hoping my diff was the same batch as David's because he reported that the diff carrier just fell out once the saddles were removed.
Mine certainly doesn't seem to be about to fall out any time soon - and it may be that "just fell out" isn't quite accurate and certain persuasions had to be applied - and I wondered what others did to coax things along.
Is a diff spreader the only way and is the spreading force such that something could be made up, or is the genuine special tool the only way.
Thanks
Tony
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 19, 2012 at 4:46 PM Flag Quote & Reply
joseph baz
Member
Posts: 331
Tony,The diff spreader is certanly a good help but you can still remove the carrier ,the trick is to pull it absolutely aquare otherways it will jam,your diff may have been assembled with a spreader a bit too spreaded out,doing the work in situ is a bastard the best of times,the carrier is really heavy and hard to handle,I ussually drop it on 4 of the gardening kneeling pads to cushion the fall (that is the easy part) refitting can be hard but you have to be patient,mark and keep evryrhing separate as per rh and lh,check everything else while you are at it
Cheers,joe
April 19, 2012 at 5:21 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
"Pull" is the hard bit. Doesn't seem to be too much to get more than a couple of fingers each side.
See on some web manuals thaat the procedure involves "levering the carrier out with two pry bars", so maybe I just need some heavier artillerythan my two largest screwdrivers.
Plenty of RHS left from building the subframe so will be able to make a spreader if necessary - especially if I can find a nice clear image to see the details
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Pete Fox
Member
Posts: 140
Tony
One example
--
Peter Fox
OKA 266 Multi-cab.
Photobucket album
April 19, 2012 at 7:51 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Pete Fox
Member
Posts: 140
And then there is always the brute force method
--
Peter Fox
OKA 266 Multi-cab.
Photobucket album
April 19, 2012 at 8:06 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Don't laugh, I have thought of a few ways to do it in a similar fashion. There is a video showing how to do it by forcing a wad of rag between the pinion gear and then turn it see - sounds a bit more controlled than the first method which involves a very real risk of having the carrier doing serious damage to the winch vehicle or driver.
What either method doesn't mention is how to get the carrier back afterwards.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 19, 2012 at 8:26 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Thanks Peter. That looks easy enough to make up. What I couldn't work out from poor images was how to keep the pegs down in the recesses but that photo shows it clearly.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 19, 2012 at 8:41 PM Flag Quote & Reply
frank
Member
Posts: 59
Help me here, I can't understand how that blue frame 'spreader' is going to help get the diff out?
--
Frank & Christine Thomas
April 19, 2012 at 10:17 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Pete Fox
Member
Posts: 140
Frank
the case keeps preload on the bearings. A very slight stretch of the case releases the preload and out it comes. Or at least tat is what I understand to be the case
Pete
--
Peter Fox
OKA 266 Multi-cab.
Photobucket album
April 19, 2012 at 10:28 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
The carrier - the cage in the middle - is a very tight fit between the 'sides' of the diff housing. Some seem to be an interferrence fit.
That frame engages into two recesses, one each side of the opening - and the screw on one end of the frame forces the sides of the frame - and hence those dimples apart, making the mouth of the diff gape a fraction wider - 15 thou - so the interferrence fit is now a loose fit and the carrier "falls out"
Having a look by torchlight - as one does - it would require some pretty weird framework to work with the axle on the vehicle - because of the spring on the drivers side.
I might give the stuff-a-rag-in-the-gear-and-lever-the-bloody-thing-out method a try first. Failing that, I might just remount the stub axles and brakes and put the wheels back on and leave the axles and hubs out (can I do this) and take it to my favourite overcharging heavy vehicle mechanic in Taree. He does at least know what an OKA is as he has two customers with OKAs. Also good at improvision. He took the gearbox and clutch out of my 40' rear engine beast out in the yard with no pit or hoist and I thought that was pretty good.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 19, 2012 at 10:29 PM Flag Quote & Reply
frank
Member
Posts: 59
thanks, so it actually does spread the diff by a fraction (hopefully within the steel's elastic limits).
Tony, why does the carrier need to come out (its not for the axle seals is it?), are you changing something else within it?
--
Frank & Christine Thomas
April 19, 2012 at 10:39 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
The axle seals are right next to the diff and even with the carrier out it is still a bit of a job getting the new seals in nice and straight. David has an article on how to do it and I was hoping mine would go the saame way - except the carrier is tighter to get out.
see www.couchsurfing.org/group_read.html?gid=512&post=9548806 for story on reassembly
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 19, 2012 at 11:11 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Maybe I should have read David's axle reconstruction part 2 a bit more carefully because I see he says "Had the diff carrier been a press fit requiring a diff spreader to remove it, I doubt that it could have been replaced in situ and the axle would have had to be removed first.'
I'm doing this job on a gravel driveway and I really don't have the gear or the strength or staamina to get the axle off safely. Maybe my options are limited to doing the 35 spline upgrade and refitting everything including the bearings and seals for practice but leave the inner seals as they are, put it all back together and get the mechanic to pull it all to bits to replace the inner seals. Bit of a cow but might be the best smart solution.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 19, 2012 at 11:34 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Dandj
Member
Posts: 367
Tony, I'm not sure an article on camping in Iceland will assist with diff removal.
If you meant my articles, part 1 is here, and part 2 is here.
And yes, the diff did just fall out once I had removed the bearing caps. I would try prying it out if it's stiff, using a spreader seems awful difficult unless the axle is out and standing on a frame. I only took the diff out to replace a spider gear with a broken tooth and took the opportunity to change the seals.
It may be that your inner seals are OK anyway. I had a front axle oil leak on a trip last year (with new seals) which turned out to be a blocked axle breather. Pressure built up inside when hot and the oil was forced past the seals.
The breather is a right angle fitting on top of the diff. It's a push fit thingy with barbs, it doesn't screw in. Lever it out and then tap it back in when clean with some gasket goo on the barbs to seal it.
2 pry bar method. I would leave the bearing caps loosely bolted so it doesn't fall on the ground if it pops out.
--
David and Janet Ribbans, Oka 148
April 19, 2012 at 11:42 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Replaced that wrong link twice and it is still there. No idea where it came from.
I'll check the diff breather anyway now that you mention it but given the amount of wading we did in mud soup both in the Simpson just before Big Red and dozens of wades down the Birdsville track, I figured the slush just got too much for the seals because there was definitely oil dripping out at one stage- but I was surprised that the oil seemed quite clean. Also the axle tubes did have mud in them but it wasn't oily.
Might look rosier tomorrow. I guess if I do get the carrier out, it might be possible to use the carrier retaining bolts and saddles- or longer ones - to carefully pull the carrier back into position provided any shims can be pre-located. Wishful thinking..
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 20, 2012 at 12:09 AM Flag Quote & Reply
Dandj
Member
Posts: 367
Tony there were no shims in mine as far as I know. Maybe that's why it fell out so easily. The only points of contact are the bearing caps at each end so there shouldn't be too much friction to overcome.
But if the diff looks clean and and no muddy sludge, maybe you never got any water in the diff housing anyway. My crown wheel had a bit of rust on one side, since it sits doing nothing for much of the time but no mud. Draining the oil will have removed any sludge.
Removing the diff is a big job just for seals which may not need changing, wheel bearings would be more of a worry.
If you proceed, see the 2 pry bar photo and note I added to my previous post.
Blocked breather maintenance in the Great Victoria Desert east of Laverton. Also blow out the breather tube with compresed air. If the airways are clear, sudden cooling in water should then suck in air rather than water.
--
David and Janet Ribbans, Oka 148
April 20, 2012 at 12:40 AM Flag Quote & Reply
joseph baz
Member
Posts: 331
Tony,Don't forget that if you're using the spreader will need a dial gauge to make sure that the spreading doesn't exceed .015",don't keep on spreading or you may damage the housing.
Cheers,Joe
April 20, 2012 at 5:39 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Thanks all. Encouraged by your positive attitude n and armed with the sum total of your knowledge, I got up at a faily late hour, girded my loins etc etc and crawled underneaath for another go.
Lo and behold, it did just about fall out - or would have if the saddles weren't there as aa safety net. It didn't exactly fall but didn't need muxh of a push before it started sliding out. WooHooo!!!!!.
As David said, it only just comes out between the housing and the steering rod, but it does come out. Immediately wrapped in white cloth, it now occupies pride of place on my newly cleared and cleaned bench.
Had to make do with a length of 10mm rod instead of the 12mm recommended by David, and with no sign of a washer large enough, I found that one of my holesaw blades mounted on the end was just the right size. Solven-soaked cloth over the holesaw blade was aa perfect snug fit in the bore so I spend a very long time cleaning the tubes out until the shone like a rifle bore.
Then came fitting the new seals. Had a few goes using the old seals and found that something I discovered a very long time ago still applies. That was that banging away in the dark trying to get a large object into a smaller hole just doesn't work very well. Much better to screw it in slowly and gently - so I stopped trying David's bash it in method (using a vacuum pipe adaptor I had left over from a job 30 years ago), and used the threaded rod blocked on the outside of the axle and extending in to the diff housing to pull the seal in using a bit of bar pulling against the PVC adaptor.
I figured that if the seal started going crooked, I could just slacken the nut and edge the bar over to the side that needed to catch up.
Just didn't work like it should have so reverted to the bash method and eventually had both seals in place.
Since then spent a long time cleaning up the hubs and other bits and pieces and tomorrow will check all the bearings to see if the should be replaced. Vehicle has only dont 100k so guess they should be OK for a few more km, especially since I always carry spares and tools to change them on the road if necessary.
Swap the UJs and outer shafts over tomorrow and once I get a couple of seals that might not be in my spares box, should be back on the road pretty fast.
Glad I don't have to put the old locking hubs back on even though they will probably clean up OK. Had to resort to using a starbit to get most of the cap screws out and there was some water inside. New hub has O-rings on the cap screws plus the large O-ring at the back so should be a bit more water resistant than the old model.
Glad I didn't need to make up a spreader to fit while the axle was still on the vehicle.
Thanks
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
April 20, 2012 at 7:36 PM
David and Janet Ribbans - Oka 148
Oka148 profile here.
Visit our technical and travel blogs: here.
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