HiClone OKA Setup
- dandjcr
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31 Oct 2012 19:14 #1
by dandjcr
David and Janet Ribbans - Oka 148
Oka148 profile here.
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dandjcr created the topic: HiClone OKA Setup
Forum Home > OKA Maintenance > HiClone OKA Setup
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From Tony Lee:
The "Hiclone OKA Setup" in Bush Mechanics [edit: this was a page on the old site; most of what was written was copied from the Hiclone site] reads as if it is a personal endorsement from one of the members. Is this correct, and if so, has the member done any actual testing of the results.
Perhaps separate results for the Hiclone and the fuel conditioner and then with them both fitted at the same time.
Tony
May 25, 2010 at 9:50 PM Flag Quote & Reply
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Posts: 412
From Joe Baz:
Hi Tony, a couple of years ago at the Perth Camping and 4WD show I asked the guy at the Hiclone stand if he had any dyno tests of before and after the installation, he totally avoided the question saying that they sold lots of units with lots of happy customers,well that doesn't cut it with me as gut feeling is not enough to determine if it works or not, on the othe hand I have a friend with an 80 series LandCruiser and he swears by it (he also thinks that his 'Cruiser goes faster after an oil change) 10 or 15% improvement can't be determined unless you do the tests over the same terrain. Its no good saying I got 10mpg going to Sydney but after the Hiclone installation on my way to Alice I got 7.5mpg.
cheers
Joe
May 25, 2010 at 9:52 PM Flag Quote & Reply
OKA4WD.com
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Posts: 412
From Tim Forsyth:
Hi Tony,
I think your questioning is very reasonable.
When I did high speed diesel at tech most we were taught that most diesel manufacturers designed their intake ducting both manifold and head to create swirling. Add a turbo then an intercooler and run inducted air into the manifold at the back (aka phaser) you have to question the Hiclone.
Dyno figures would be needed to convince me.
Hey Dave when you do the dyno etc on your big air filter maybe a Hiclone test would be good. Several years ago I put my Denco turboed 100 series on a dyno. Tested standard air filter K&N Finer Filter and no air filter, absolutely no difference to performance. The real test, (I was not game to do it on my car) would be to tip measured amounts of talcum powder down the airfilter until noticable power loss, measure how much talcum powder was needed to block the air filter, then the Hiclone could make a differance.
A lot of manufacturers do put swirling fins into their induction system (Std HZ in the 100 series) so there is a place for Hiclones but a dyno would be the only way to know if they would make a difference to the Phaser. I really think that the way air is inducted into the Phaser manifold a Hiclone just before the intake manifold might do something but the sudden expansion to the intake air into the manifold would slow any swirling down considerably.
As to improving the power/fuel efficiency (depends on your right foot) until you replace the turbo and get boost down low all other improvements are debatable. The guys who did my power upgrade (now posted on my website) can supply the big turbo with the correct flange to fit our Phaser. After that Pete's intercooler would be a sensible $$ improvement, as would the gas injection.
Tim.
May 25, 2010 at 9:57 PM Flag Quote & Reply
OKA4WD.com
Administrator
Posts: 412
From Peter_n_Margaret:
Third hand, but I heard that Hiclone was one of the snake oil devices that Consumer Affairs was going to target, along with the Fitch filter.
Cheers,
Peter
May 25, 2010 at 9:58 PM Flag Quote & Reply
OKA4WD.com
Administrator
Posts: 412
From Paul Scherek:
>> As to improving the power/fuel efficiency ... as would the gas injection. Tim. <<
Hi all,
I tried gas injection on my Land Rover and found it to be a complete dud. It did improve power at half throttle, but made no difference at full throttle.
In an attempt to get a power boost at full throttle, it was set for a higher gas level, and now the engine uses oil which it never did before.
I have now heard numerous similar stories from others who have tried the various gas injection systems, and one thing is universal - those who test by the seat of the pants think they work okay, but anyone who tests with a stop-watch says they don't work.
Given the potential for engine damage, I will be keeping gas injection well away from my Oka. I think the other suggestions are both cheaper and safer.
Cheers all,
Paul
May 25, 2010 at 10:00 PM Flag Quote & Reply
OKA4WD.com
Administrator
Posts: 412
From Tony Lee:
The common scam with gas injection is to claim much better fuel economy in terms of km per litre and the results are nothing short of amazing until you realise that somewhere there is some fine print that says "of diesel used".
Completely ignores the amount and cost of the LPG that is used in place of the saved diesel.
LPG injection certainly has its followers and under certain conditions probably does give more power, which is really what people are looking for.
May 25, 2010 at 10:02 PM Flag Quote & Reply
OKA4WD.com
Administrator
Posts: 412
From John Hendricks:
For what it is worth, I had installed two Hiclone units on my OKA, which has been sold and now have them also put into my Patrol. I also have a diesel gas installation and only use the gas when I tow. I find the 3.0l litre 4 cyl diesel pulls heaps better than without the gas as well as giving me better fuel consumption. I also increased the exhaust pipe to 3" throughout to make the engine exhaust escape better.
I know many have negative information on both the Hiclone and Diesel Gas, but I am convinced it works for me. I tow a large heavy trailer (950kg) and it feels like it is not even attached to my truck. The added bonus is that under load there is a lot less black unburnt smoke under acceleration, so this means to me that with the gas it burns the diesel more efficiently, thereby giving me heaps better fuel figures. On a full tank (120litre diesel only) I used to get close to 800km, now with an additional 32litre of LPG, I get close to 1100km... so for me it works, as well as getting $2000 back from the government for the installation.
I also have a 3" Hiclone at the K&N filter side and 1.5" Hiclone just before the turbo and I am convinced that this swirling effect with my gas injection has made a big difference. I don't use the special chip to alter the timing on the pump, as I am happy with the current performance.
May 25, 2010 at 10:04 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Peter Davis & Serena Fraser
Member
Posts: 39
OKA4WD.com at May 25, 2010 at 10:02 PM
From Tony Lee:
The common scam with gas injection is to claim much better fuel economy in terms of km per litre and the results are nothing short of amazing until you realise that somewhere there is some fine print that says "of diesel used".
Completely ignores the amount and cost of the LPG that is used in place of the saved diesel.
LPG injection certainly has its followers and under certain conditions probably does give more power, which is really what people are looking for.
For those with LPG what sort of fuel savings (km/litre) are you getting and/or did you feel an increase in power? I have recently had LPG fitted but I need to go back for some fine tuning after 2000km. So far have had an increase in fuel economy of 0.5 to 0.8 km/litre. 14 litres of lpg was used with 165 litre of diesel. Any feed back would be appreciated.
June 3, 2012 at 6:17 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
The main factor is a powerful effect called confirmation bias.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
June 3, 2012 at 6:42 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Pete Fox
Member
Posts: 140
"For those with LPG what sort of fuel savings (km/litre) are you getting and/or did you feel an increase in power?"
Peter
I have diesel gas on a 4.2 Patrol with a 3" exhaust system. In hindsight it really wasn't worth the money. Bang for buck the 3" exhaust was a whole lot better value.
However, there definitely is a power improvement, but it is only noticeable when towing. No dyno test here, but an easy way to tell is to turn the gas off going up a decent hill. It doesn't take long to tell the difference as the Patrol just dies away without gas.
There is also an improvement in economy. I tested this on exactly the same route from Wauchope to Melbourne via Canberra, ie. over the mountains and going in the same direction. It is not a deal maker but overall I used about a litre less fuel (gas and diesel combined) per 100k than I did with just diesel. Overall it meant about 10% less money spent because of the savings in gas.
--
Peter Fox
OKA 266 Multi-cab.
Photobucket album
June 3, 2012 at 8:13 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Peter & Sandra James Oka 374
Member
Posts: 412
When I was looking for an Oka i drove two LT's fitted with diesel gas, it made them go NEARLY as well as a good XT.
LT's is standard form are nobbled by the Rockwell transfer case, changing it for something with less drag like a Nissan transfer case will result in improved performance and much less noise and heat. Never mind the improved shift response and a handbrake that works!
--
Oka 374 LT Van
June 4, 2012 at 6:33 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Dean & Kaye Howells
Member
Posts: 79
Diesel/gas is proven technology (unlike HiClones) will give you greater range, more power and improved economy, especially on a low tech diesel like the Perkins. It allows more complete (efficient) combustion and should not be compared to or even associated in any way with HiClones which have been shown many times over to be basically snake oil a rip off and a complete waste of money.
Deano
June 5, 2012 at 5:39 PM
OKA4WD.com
Administrator
Posts: 412
From Tony Lee:
The "Hiclone OKA Setup" in Bush Mechanics [edit: this was a page on the old site; most of what was written was copied from the Hiclone site] reads as if it is a personal endorsement from one of the members. Is this correct, and if so, has the member done any actual testing of the results.
Perhaps separate results for the Hiclone and the fuel conditioner and then with them both fitted at the same time.
Tony
May 25, 2010 at 9:50 PM Flag Quote & Reply
OKA4WD.com
Administrator
Posts: 412
From Joe Baz:
Hi Tony, a couple of years ago at the Perth Camping and 4WD show I asked the guy at the Hiclone stand if he had any dyno tests of before and after the installation, he totally avoided the question saying that they sold lots of units with lots of happy customers,well that doesn't cut it with me as gut feeling is not enough to determine if it works or not, on the othe hand I have a friend with an 80 series LandCruiser and he swears by it (he also thinks that his 'Cruiser goes faster after an oil change) 10 or 15% improvement can't be determined unless you do the tests over the same terrain. Its no good saying I got 10mpg going to Sydney but after the Hiclone installation on my way to Alice I got 7.5mpg.
cheers
Joe
May 25, 2010 at 9:52 PM Flag Quote & Reply
OKA4WD.com
Administrator
Posts: 412
From Tim Forsyth:
Hi Tony,
I think your questioning is very reasonable.
When I did high speed diesel at tech most we were taught that most diesel manufacturers designed their intake ducting both manifold and head to create swirling. Add a turbo then an intercooler and run inducted air into the manifold at the back (aka phaser) you have to question the Hiclone.
Dyno figures would be needed to convince me.
Hey Dave when you do the dyno etc on your big air filter maybe a Hiclone test would be good. Several years ago I put my Denco turboed 100 series on a dyno. Tested standard air filter K&N Finer Filter and no air filter, absolutely no difference to performance. The real test, (I was not game to do it on my car) would be to tip measured amounts of talcum powder down the airfilter until noticable power loss, measure how much talcum powder was needed to block the air filter, then the Hiclone could make a differance.
A lot of manufacturers do put swirling fins into their induction system (Std HZ in the 100 series) so there is a place for Hiclones but a dyno would be the only way to know if they would make a difference to the Phaser. I really think that the way air is inducted into the Phaser manifold a Hiclone just before the intake manifold might do something but the sudden expansion to the intake air into the manifold would slow any swirling down considerably.
As to improving the power/fuel efficiency (depends on your right foot) until you replace the turbo and get boost down low all other improvements are debatable. The guys who did my power upgrade (now posted on my website) can supply the big turbo with the correct flange to fit our Phaser. After that Pete's intercooler would be a sensible $$ improvement, as would the gas injection.
Tim.
May 25, 2010 at 9:57 PM Flag Quote & Reply
OKA4WD.com
Administrator
Posts: 412
From Peter_n_Margaret:
Third hand, but I heard that Hiclone was one of the snake oil devices that Consumer Affairs was going to target, along with the Fitch filter.
Cheers,
Peter
May 25, 2010 at 9:58 PM Flag Quote & Reply
OKA4WD.com
Administrator
Posts: 412
From Paul Scherek:
>> As to improving the power/fuel efficiency ... as would the gas injection. Tim. <<
Hi all,
I tried gas injection on my Land Rover and found it to be a complete dud. It did improve power at half throttle, but made no difference at full throttle.
In an attempt to get a power boost at full throttle, it was set for a higher gas level, and now the engine uses oil which it never did before.
I have now heard numerous similar stories from others who have tried the various gas injection systems, and one thing is universal - those who test by the seat of the pants think they work okay, but anyone who tests with a stop-watch says they don't work.
Given the potential for engine damage, I will be keeping gas injection well away from my Oka. I think the other suggestions are both cheaper and safer.
Cheers all,
Paul
May 25, 2010 at 10:00 PM Flag Quote & Reply
OKA4WD.com
Administrator
Posts: 412
From Tony Lee:
The common scam with gas injection is to claim much better fuel economy in terms of km per litre and the results are nothing short of amazing until you realise that somewhere there is some fine print that says "of diesel used".
Completely ignores the amount and cost of the LPG that is used in place of the saved diesel.
LPG injection certainly has its followers and under certain conditions probably does give more power, which is really what people are looking for.
May 25, 2010 at 10:02 PM Flag Quote & Reply
OKA4WD.com
Administrator
Posts: 412
From John Hendricks:
For what it is worth, I had installed two Hiclone units on my OKA, which has been sold and now have them also put into my Patrol. I also have a diesel gas installation and only use the gas when I tow. I find the 3.0l litre 4 cyl diesel pulls heaps better than without the gas as well as giving me better fuel consumption. I also increased the exhaust pipe to 3" throughout to make the engine exhaust escape better.
I know many have negative information on both the Hiclone and Diesel Gas, but I am convinced it works for me. I tow a large heavy trailer (950kg) and it feels like it is not even attached to my truck. The added bonus is that under load there is a lot less black unburnt smoke under acceleration, so this means to me that with the gas it burns the diesel more efficiently, thereby giving me heaps better fuel figures. On a full tank (120litre diesel only) I used to get close to 800km, now with an additional 32litre of LPG, I get close to 1100km... so for me it works, as well as getting $2000 back from the government for the installation.
I also have a 3" Hiclone at the K&N filter side and 1.5" Hiclone just before the turbo and I am convinced that this swirling effect with my gas injection has made a big difference. I don't use the special chip to alter the timing on the pump, as I am happy with the current performance.
May 25, 2010 at 10:04 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Peter Davis & Serena Fraser
Member
Posts: 39
OKA4WD.com at May 25, 2010 at 10:02 PM
From Tony Lee:
The common scam with gas injection is to claim much better fuel economy in terms of km per litre and the results are nothing short of amazing until you realise that somewhere there is some fine print that says "of diesel used".
Completely ignores the amount and cost of the LPG that is used in place of the saved diesel.
LPG injection certainly has its followers and under certain conditions probably does give more power, which is really what people are looking for.
For those with LPG what sort of fuel savings (km/litre) are you getting and/or did you feel an increase in power? I have recently had LPG fitted but I need to go back for some fine tuning after 2000km. So far have had an increase in fuel economy of 0.5 to 0.8 km/litre. 14 litres of lpg was used with 165 litre of diesel. Any feed back would be appreciated.
June 3, 2012 at 6:17 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
The main factor is a powerful effect called confirmation bias.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
June 3, 2012 at 6:42 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Pete Fox
Member
Posts: 140
"For those with LPG what sort of fuel savings (km/litre) are you getting and/or did you feel an increase in power?"
Peter
I have diesel gas on a 4.2 Patrol with a 3" exhaust system. In hindsight it really wasn't worth the money. Bang for buck the 3" exhaust was a whole lot better value.
However, there definitely is a power improvement, but it is only noticeable when towing. No dyno test here, but an easy way to tell is to turn the gas off going up a decent hill. It doesn't take long to tell the difference as the Patrol just dies away without gas.
There is also an improvement in economy. I tested this on exactly the same route from Wauchope to Melbourne via Canberra, ie. over the mountains and going in the same direction. It is not a deal maker but overall I used about a litre less fuel (gas and diesel combined) per 100k than I did with just diesel. Overall it meant about 10% less money spent because of the savings in gas.
--
Peter Fox
OKA 266 Multi-cab.
Photobucket album
June 3, 2012 at 8:13 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Peter & Sandra James Oka 374
Member
Posts: 412
When I was looking for an Oka i drove two LT's fitted with diesel gas, it made them go NEARLY as well as a good XT.
LT's is standard form are nobbled by the Rockwell transfer case, changing it for something with less drag like a Nissan transfer case will result in improved performance and much less noise and heat. Never mind the improved shift response and a handbrake that works!
--
Oka 374 LT Van
June 4, 2012 at 6:33 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Dean & Kaye Howells
Member
Posts: 79
Diesel/gas is proven technology (unlike HiClones) will give you greater range, more power and improved economy, especially on a low tech diesel like the Perkins. It allows more complete (efficient) combustion and should not be compared to or even associated in any way with HiClones which have been shown many times over to be basically snake oil a rip off and a complete waste of money.
Deano
June 5, 2012 at 5:39 PM
David and Janet Ribbans - Oka 148
Oka148 profile here.
Visit our technical and travel blogs: here.
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