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31 Aug 2021 06:29 - 31 Aug 2021 06:31 #41 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Members

Alister McBride wrote: I'm happy personally to wait for Mort, i did say "as early as practicable", but wanted to ensure there wasn't another 2 month wait with nothing done. If that was innocent and you're doing your best to get things back up that's fine, but if there was avoidance in getting the account back up and hoping people would forget, that's not fine...

Thanks for the short and to the point reply ;)


I am not married to him, so I do not keep his schedule.
And I am not his FIFO boss, or FIFO pilot, nor am I McGowen… so I have no control over the Covid barriers that may be limit his travels.

You probably need some way to deal with patience.

I cannot ensure it will not be another 2 months, nor do I really care if it is.
Mort is not required to give me his schedule, and I am not sending him an ankle bracelet to wear...

Alister McBride wrote: … If that was innocent and you're doing your best to get things back up that's fine, but if there was avoidance in getting the account back up and hoping people would forget, that's not fine...


Innocent? That is pretty rich.

I told you all what I could do seven weeks ago right after the surgery,
And you’all said “no thanks”.
I offered the new account, you demanded otherwise… And I then put up the foot.
I swear I have posted this earlier.

So I am not doing “My Best”… I already did “My best” weeks ago. There is no more to really do other than understand your perspective which you have not answered a question of.
This must be something you get some odd joy out of, because it does out seem like you don’t take the time to either read, nor to engage in any honest communication. It is like talking to a wall. Hence the term innocent seems an odd word for you to have used.


As an analogy…
It is like demanding the Perkins go up the hill at 130 mph.
You are literally putting your foot down, but technically it can only give what it is capable of.
At this point we are in third gear, and going 50 kph.
(Whereas we could have switched gears to the new account 7 weeks ago.)
Last Edit: 31 Aug 2021 06:31 by Holmz.

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01 Sep 2021 12:26 #42 by mort
mort replied the topic: Members
Hi All,
I got back late last night after a very long stint at work, not my choice but we are at the commissioning stage which is where I was needed so work goes on.
Before I reply to this topic I would like some questions answered.
where is the politics in all of this as I am at a loss to answer.
Do you think David did a better job than myself at running the site.
I await clear answers.

Martyn

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01 Sep 2021 19:39 #43 by Alister McBride
Alister McBride replied the topic: Members
Hi Mort,

It all got a bit off track, but basically i think the general consensus from most posters was the following (it got frustrating for me as at no stage did Holmz actually answer the first two questions, which are the most pertinent and aren't related to any personal info so should be perfectly fine to share...):
- Why did OKAbloke get removed?
- What rule was broken?
- If it was decided to re-instate his account, why couldn't the original account be re-instated?
- And, the assumption - after 2 months of no reinstatement, was there some other reason why this wasn't happening, and if so, what were the reasons? We wanted to make sure it wasn't going to be left by the wayside...

I think it has been stated multiple times that the admins are appreciated but they are there to serve the oka community in IT'S best interests. I personally don't think there should be a comparison between yourself and David R, but since there aren't any actual official rules (that i know of), the group should be deciding what should happen, and not be at the mercy of the admin. Hence my suggestion the forum rules should be available somewhere so no member, even accidentally, breaks them and finds themselves on the outer inadvertently... Again, personally, i don't think anyone should be banned unless completely unruly and even then only temporarily... but that's just my opinion.

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02 Sep 2021 06:39 #44 by Bill
Bill replied the topic: Members
I have not been a member for too long and still looking for an OKA but not in a big rush so in the meantime I have spent time reading up on what I can.
I have found the site informative and set-out fine BUT having been on many sites over the years and as an admin on some it is a very hard and time consuming role with little understanding or appreciation of the role.
As members we need to trust that admin do what is best for the site as a whole with little or no remuneration or reward.
Privacy of a member is important and not always open for public debate or disclosure.
I work in the area of Work Place Health and Safety and would describe some of the posts in this topic as Bullying, Harassment and Aggressive and don't understand why they were allowed to remain.
To the question of Politics, maybe I have not been a member long enough to understand.

Bill
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02 Sep 2021 08:18 - 02 Sep 2021 08:20 #45 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Members

Bill wrote: I have not been a member for too long and still looking for an OKA but not in a big rush so in the meantime I have spent time reading up on what I can.
I have found the site informative and set-out fine BUT having been on many sites over the years and as an admin on some it is a very hard and time consuming role with little understanding or appreciation of the role.
As members we need to trust that admin do what is best for the site as a whole with little or no remuneration or reward.
Privacy of a member is important and not always open for public debate or disclosure.
I work in the area of Work Place Health and Safety and would describe some of the posts in this topic as Bullying, Harassment and Aggressive and don't understand why they were allowed to remain.
To the question of Politics, maybe I have not been a member long enough to understand.

Bill


Thanks for your sage input Bill.

If the behaviour was directed at another member, they would likely have a ban for a while to ponder it.
The theme seems to be that they own and OKA and own the site, and that a sense of community has been violated.
As with Covid has generally isolated people and affected their sense of community, I choose to overlook childish behaviour.

As someone with experience in Work Place H&S, does ^this^ make sense? Or what input do you have?

I doubt you will understand the politics… your pondering it is the third time that the question has been asked, and I doubt we will get an adult response to “please explain” it. Mort asked it yesterday and very next post just ignored the question yet again.


Anyhow…
Good luck in your search.
Where are you at?

I got bailed up outside of a Bunnings in the south of WA by a lady, and we chatted about the OKA. Later I thought… I should have gotten her number.
As we parted I shouted out, “What’s your name”.
She yelled back, “Hedy”.
Me: “Like the mathematician?”
She shouted back, “That’s the one!”

I thought… “Cricky… the name Hedy seems more rare than a OKA.”

A mathematician might run the numbers and conclude that an OKA is battle.
But as the Mrs and her friend said… These make almost no sense.
Me: “it is an emotional decision… Even if I never use it, I know thatI can walk out and be in the bush with an hours pack up.”

That OKA emotion seems to be somewhat ubiquitous - and I suspect is why this thread run a strange course that would have raised StarTrek’s Spock eyebrow a notch or two.
Last Edit: 02 Sep 2021 08:20 by Holmz.

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03 Sep 2021 07:36 #46 by Alister McBride
Alister McBride replied the topic: Members
Hi Bill, thanks for the input. I would be a bit of a hypocrite after speaking about the OKA community so much if i/we didn't welcome you to the group! Usually newbies will start a thread saying where they're from and a bit of background etc. Where are you from? What sites were you admin for? What setup of vehicle are you after? There are a lot of people here who may be interested in helping you out.

As for this topic. At no stage was it questioned how much work is involved in being an admin or stated that it wasn't appreciated. However, i volunteer months of my life each year to an organisation and quite frankly, if i started going around banning people for basically nothing i'd be sent packing! I made a decision when i 'raised my voice' a week or two ago to try and bring to light this situation by continuing others' (the majority) concerns about an unfair and un-rectified situation, and to make sure it didn't happen again. I don't believe you are right in that the admins should be able to do whatever, whenever, and i think they should be accountable for their actions, they are serving this community, not the other way around. The last guy that was banned was set up by someone (during a previous admin) and got banned for defending himself, although a bit rowdily, but really he shouldn't have been banned, and the guy who set him up got off scott free... Do i have trust/faith in the admin if this kind of thing happens? Not many said anything back then and it seems a few of us didn't want that kind of un-just thing to happen again. My personal viewpoint in this situation was that this admin needed to be accountable for their decision. The way i went about this was too hard. Either way, they still haven't justified their actions in banning someone who has been part of the OKA community within and without the site for over 20 years, has contributed with technical inputs for most of that time, and really should be shown as much understanding and compassion as possible! None of the questions i've asked have broken or would break any privacy laws to answer, i know as my partner is the pcp for an organisation we both volunteer for greatly...

I re-iterate the previous questions:
- Why did OKAbloke get removed?
- What rule was broken?
- If it was decided to re-instate his account, why couldn't the original account be re-instated?
- And, the assumption - after 2 months of no reinstatement, was there some other reason why this wasn't happening, and if so, what were the reasons? We wanted to make sure it wasn't going to be left by the wayside...

Quite reasonable questions for the OKA community to hear a response to.

Holmz - Thanks for your anecdote. My personal point is made in the paragraph above and requires the answering of these questions to then answer your question of what politics is involved. So please illuminate us on the decision making process. As you have been deflecting from the question this whole time and are speaking down to all those who question you, since you deflect and make it personal, i can only assume you don't have a plausible or reasonable response.

Considering the decision by admin to not answer these questions, and quite rudely ban someone and not justify their decision - (to some peoples pleasure) i won't be posting anything on this site for some time. There are alternatives which seem for the moment to be less political. I would ask that you don't delete my account for now, but that of course is your prerogative and i don't hold any hope that you would listen to my, or anyone else's objections either way... Of course, if you ban everyone who dissents, then you guys can have the site setup exactly how you like it... Good luck! ;)
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03 Sep 2021 11:46 #47 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Members
Totally agree with all your comments Alister, like many others now conspicuous by their absence this is also my last post.
Sad.
Have had many invaluable connections since the very beginning of this forum
Maybe there might be a change to OKA4wd.com in the future that could restore enjoyment of this once valuable OKA resource to what it was for all.
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03 Sep 2021 13:57 #48 by Paul Scherek
Paul Scherek replied the topic: Members
Can't we all just chill out a bit? If it wasn't for these two gents, there wouldn't BE an Oka forum.

I have a friend who is an I.T. expert. When the need was there, I considered offering to run this site, so I asked his advice. He said "Don't do it. It will be a lot of work, very few will thank you, and lots will call you names". As I said, he is an I.T. expert, and it seems he was right.
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04 Sep 2021 06:56 #49 by Tony Lee
Tony Lee replied the topic: Members
I'd suggest that if and when the rules are published - if the moderators decide to do it of course, and I would strongly advise them against it - then the first rules MUST BE that "the decisions of the moderators is final and there will be no public discussion of those decisions."

This would be entirely consistent with the rules of all fora and Facebook groups and similar groups that I have been involved with. As has been pointed out, none of them are democracies and the ones putting in the effort of running them hold the keys. If you don't like it then just go and start up a group of your own, make it operate as a complete democracy aka anarchy, and see how long it lasts.

As for expecting someone to come up with a set of rules covering all possible situations, I would suggest opening your eyes and coming back to live in the real world.

Tony
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04 Sep 2021 07:53 #50 by Bill
Bill replied the topic: Members
Hi Alister and others,
I did join back in April and introduce myself which you did reply but maybe you forgot.
I am not sure what I want other than what I have to spend.
I will retire in a few years and so no hurry yet
Bill

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04 Sep 2021 08:27 #51 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Members

Alister McBride wrote: Hi Bill, thanks for the input. I would be a bit of a hypocrite after speaking about the OKA community so much if i/we didn't welcome you to the group! Usually newbies will start a thread saying where they're from and a bit of background etc. Where are you from? What sites were you admin for? What setup of vehicle are you after? There are a lot of people here who may be interested in helping you out.


What does it matter what sites he was an admin for?
He is looking at OKAs, which should be enough of a reason to be on an OKA forum,.

And he opined on this topic with workplace H&S perspective, he does not need to show credentials if we are not hiring him for a job.
To suggest he needs to show credentials appears (to me) to be leaning toward some ad hominem being set up, where his opinion does not matter because it is in a different field.

He opined, so we can take it on (as I did), or discount his input.
I am not about to let him be on the end of some hostile post.

Alister McBride wrote: ...
I re-iterate the previous questions:
- Why did OKAbloke get removed?
- What rule was broken?
- If it was decided to re-instate his account, why couldn't the original account be re-instated?
- And, the assumption - after 2 months of no reinstatement, was there some other reason why this wasn't happening, and if so, what were the reasons? We wanted to make sure it wasn't going to be left by the wayside...

Quite reasonable questions for the OKA community to hear a response to.

Holmz - Thanks for your anecdote. My personal point is made in the paragraph above and requires the answering of these questions to then answer your question of what politics is involved. So please illuminate us on the decision making process. As you have been deflecting from the question this whole time and are speaking down to all those who question you, since you deflect and make it personal, i can only assume you don't have a plausible or reasonable response.

Considering the decision by admin to not answer these questions, and quite rudely ban someone and not justify their decision - (to some peoples pleasure) i won't be posting anything on this site for some time.


FCS… I have told you before that it was not my decision.
As to your point #3… I offered to set up the new account, and was meet with a storm… I’ve explained it numerous times.

So maybe layoff of the politics conspiracy theorist deal… and just tell us how you perceive that seems political?
I am not a mind reader, so it is hard for me to connect these dots. You need to actually say it.

The other person that was banned a few years ago was the result of “beating up the admin” to have him banned. You said that it was unjust, but you seem to be doing a similar thing here.
It seems a but hypocritical.

And for Nth time, I do not need to justify myself to you.
I have tried to engage in an open and adult conversation… but it really seems like just want to vent.

I get that it seems personal, and that in some “sense of community” it is an attack towards you.
This was also mentioned early on in the context with Covid and isolation and more limited ways to interact.
But it is not about you, nor an attack against you… You can believe it is, but that is not comporting with reality.

Alister McBride wrote: ...
Considering the decision by admin to not answer these questions, and quite rudely ban someone and not justify their decision - (to some peoples pleasure) i won't be posting anything on this site for some time.


You are free to take you ball and go if that is what you want to do. I cannot stop you.

The forum is a combination of a technical forum and also a social forum.
However it is not like FB where it needs to filled with conspiracy theories and political and personal attacks.

You’ve been given free reign to voice your displeasure… really there was no way to not give you free reign… as to ban or delete your posts would then (in your mind) confirm that it was political and/or power trip work.

You were allowed to go on ad naseum, so unless there is some change in the discourse, such as explaining how it is perceived as political, then it seems like the same questions being repeated are not going to result in anything productive. It is just a time waster.

It is probably about time to switch gears and get some OKA related enjoyment by using the site to share some, or receive, technical expertise or stories etc.
It should not be such a wound to the ego as to require you to take you ball and leave.
Basically it was never about you.

I appreciate, and respect, that you have a passionate concern for your group of friends, but the ban was not my doing.
And like d'Artagnan and his two mates… the three admins need to be more similar to the three musketeers, than to the three stooges.
So whatever the other admins say I’ll abide.

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04 Sep 2021 08:29 #52 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: Members

Paul Scherek wrote: Can't we all just chill out a bit? If it wasn't for these two gents, there wouldn't BE an Oka forum.

I have a friend who is an I.T. expert. When the need was there, I considered offering to run this site, so I asked his advice. He said "Don't do it. It will be a lot of work, very few will thank you, and lots will call you names". As I said, he is an I.T. expert, and it seems he was right.


There are actually three admins… but only one is dumb enough to regularly engage in dialogue, and of the three, only two are also gents.

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05 Sep 2021 14:44 #53 by mort
mort replied the topic: Members
Hi Bill,
Thanks for your input, its timely as I have spent the last 3 days upgrading, updating and/or renewing some of my qualifications and 1 of the units was Discrimination, Harassment and Bullying.
Knowing this was coming up I printed a copy of this post and used it as an example during the discussion period and did it get a good working over in the area of online Bullying etc.
Hope to here more from you.
Martyn

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05 Sep 2021 14:57 #54 by mort
mort replied the topic: Members
Hi Tony

Tony Lee wrote: I'd suggest that if and when the rules are published - if the moderators decide to do it of course, and I would strongly advise them against it - then the first rules MUST BE that "the decisions of the moderators is final and there will be no public discussion of those decisions."

This would be entirely consistent with the rules of all fora and Facebook groups and similar groups that I have been involved with. As has been pointed out, none of them are democracies and the ones putting in the effort of running them hold the keys. If you don't like it then just go and start up a group of your own, make it operate as a complete democracy aka anarchy, and see how long it lasts.

As for expecting someone to come up with a set of rules covering all possible situations, I would suggest opening your eyes and coming back to live in the real world.

Here is a post from Hal a few years ago,

Hal Harvey
Site Owner
Posts: 510
Welcome to our forums. Please note you may have to add this site to the 'Compatibility View' in Internet Explorer to have some pictures appear properly. Or not. Really not sure.


Rules: the usual ones apply. Be well behaved and let's have a PG rating or better. Anything out of order will be deleted without consultation.
--
Hal

There was a set of rules on the first page of this site but when it was changed in 2017 not everything migrated across however all the members that have responded to this topic were members then and just because the rules are not visible does not negate them, only new members could use the argument that they didn't know there was rules, it may not get much traction though.
I like Hal's rule, Rules: the usual ones apply. Be well behaved and let's have a PG rating or better. Anything out of order will be deleted without consultation.

Martyn

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05 Sep 2021 15:39 #55 by mort
mort replied the topic: Members
Hi Alister,
The thing about all of this is not all of the info you have or have been told is all the info I have and is not for public display or discussion.
You wrongly stated that it was political and what some FB site does or has done, you were asked to explain but failed to do so or retract that statement.
In the same post you insulted the admin, belittled and bullied to try to get what you want and even used the term majority wanted it well 3 or 4 is not a majority and if I added up the P/M's that I have got in support not necessarily in the action as they dont know the full story but in my handling as admin and any decision I take.
The person who was banned a few years ago yes was wrong but the reasons behind it is not common knowledge and you would all be surprised why the ban took place but no one cried out and accepted the admin decision and only now bring it up to strengthen your argument.

I did ask if you thought my admin was different to Davids well I was only following on from a decision David made in 2017 but again that is behind the scene that isnt common knowledge.

I wonder if you are pushing the boundaries to see what it takes to be banned as you have mentioned it a few times when in fact it was never considered in your case.

Martyn
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