Wanted info on Cummins 6BT

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14 May 2013 19:19 #1 by Cando
Cando created the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT
Hi all,
Have decided to install a larger engine in XLT-112.
Looking at the Cummins 6BT.
Any info relating to this would be greatly appreciated. OBJ has kindly supplied some sites to look thru. ( thanks)
I'm looking for new or complete to rebuild as well as all the other bits needed to change and install.
Thanks in advance.

Cando
XLT-112

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14 May 2013 19:33 - 14 May 2013 19:36 #2 by Outback Jack
Outback Jack replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT
Here is info about the Cummins, sorry Cando forget to add it to the list

Cummins Engine

2011 Cummins ISB 6.7L Diesel Engine NEW! 350 HP 500-11964

Just remember with a new engine, you will need to get rid of Adblue if you want and other emissions.

Or get a earlier engine

Cummins 5.9 Ebay
Last Edit: 14 May 2013 19:36 by Outback Jack.

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14 May 2013 19:50 - 14 May 2013 20:07 #3 by Outback Jack
Outback Jack replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT
Last Edit: 14 May 2013 20:07 by Outback Jack.

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14 May 2013 22:26 #4 by TH
TH replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT
I have been looking at wrecked dodge rams online out of the US for a bit and wondering how hard a complete drivetrain transplant would be.


The other motor I have been trying to find more info about is the Iveco Tector 4. Which is a 4 litre 4 cyl of similar size to the Perkins. Pretty sure an Allison 6pd will bolt up to it. ZF box is another option

New ones have the dreaded adblue

Cheers, Tony

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15 May 2013 04:46 #5 by PeteFox
PeteFox replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT

Cando wrote: Hi all,
Have decided to install a larger engine in XLT-112.
Looking at the Cummins 6BT.
.


If you want to go the Cummins route, Paul Nott is your man, he had made a kit to adapt the 6bt to the standard Oka running gear using the Dodge Ram engine. Ian Jones has a conversion in progress using the Ram engine and the Dodge auto trans with an NP205/Lomax married setup so he would be worth talking to.

Personally I don't understand the fixation with the Cummins, nothing wrong with the engine, just a lot of extra work and expense. Why not use the Perkins Phaser 6 cylinder? All of the ancillaries should bolt straight up, no messing about making flywheels and engine plates. They are available up to 210 hp and were used in ACCOs for years, so were fairly common, just the added length of 2 more cylinders.

Pete Fox OKA266 MultiCab
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www.byles.net/www.oka4wd.com/forum/membe...oka-266?limitstart=0

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15 May 2013 05:59 #6 by Peter and Sandra OKA 374
Peter and Sandra OKA 374 replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT
Peter
There would be absolutely no comparison between a 6 cylinder Perky and a 6BT Cummins as far as power output and economy goes.
Even an early model mechanically injected 5.9 6BT would provide more than enough power for an Oka.
IMHO I reckon a late model 6.7l could be dangerous in an Oka in inexperienced hands as it could easily exceed the dynamic abilities of an Oka, arriving at a corner with way too much speed on might be very interesting!

OKA 374 LT Van, converted to camper/motorhome,
400ah Lithiums, 680w solar, diesel cooking heating and HWS,
Cummins 6BT, Allison 6 speed auto, Nissan transfer.

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15 May 2013 07:38 #7 by Outback Jack
Outback Jack replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT
IMHO opinion I think somewhere between 150 to 200 HP would be fine for a OKA. The Perkins does a OK job, however struggles a with hills etc. With a little more HP, this would be fine.

The 6BT has been around since about 1984, and I think mechanical injection would be the way to go.

I just put the link up for the 6.7 as it is a new engine.

I am not sure what Hals Duramax is putting out, but it would I think have to be over 200 HP and there are OKA`s around with 200+hp Cummins as well.

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15 May 2013 07:55 #8 by PeteFox
PeteFox replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT

Peter and Sandra James OKA 374 wrote: Peter
There would be absolutely no comparison between a 6 cylinder Perky and a 6BT Cummins as far as power output and economy goes.


Peter
I don't understand.
I am not talking about a Perkins 6.354. I am talking about a 1006-60T, which is what is already in the OKA with two more cylinders added. I am not talking about ISB engines either.

Cummins and Perkins both mechanical injection
both approx. 6 litre
both available up to 210hp
both 90's technology
similar dimensions and weights competing for the same market

Whats the difference except the badge?

The point I was making is that the Perkins 1006 is the same (with 2 extra cylinders) as the OKA Perkins we now have. So the Power steering pump, engine plate flywheel, starter, fan, water pump, wiring etc. etc. will bolt straight up.

I am not trying to start a Perkins v's Cummins argument here. I just thought they were fairly equivalent engines and one was a bit less hassle and expense to fit.

Pete Fox OKA266 MultiCab
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www.byles.net/www.oka4wd.com/forum/membe...oka-266?limitstart=0

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15 May 2013 09:31 #9 by Peter and Sandra OKA 374
Peter and Sandra OKA 374 replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT
Sorry Pete, was thinking of the older 6.354.
From memory though they were more expensive and down on power compared to a Cummins. I had a a look around a couple of years ago and they were pretty scarce.

OKA 374 LT Van, converted to camper/motorhome,
400ah Lithiums, 680w solar, diesel cooking heating and HWS,
Cummins 6BT, Allison 6 speed auto, Nissan transfer.

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15 May 2013 14:36 #10 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT

PeteFox wrote: Personally I don't understand the fixation with the Cummins, nothing wrong with the engine, just a lot of extra work and expense. Why not use the Perkins Phaser 6 cylinder? All of the ancillaries should bolt straight up, no messing about making flywheels and engine plates. They are available up to 210 hp and were used in ACCOs for years, so were fairly common, just the added length of 2 more cylinders.


Peter,
My thoughts were the same until a fully reconditioned Perkins Phaser 210 recently appeared on gumtree by engine reconditioner in Warnambool (now sold or at least no longer on gumtree).


Had a chat to the mechanic who did the work and it sounded like a real good engine
Did some measurements though and its not just a simple matter of 2 extra cylinders on the font or back of the engine
Engine mountings are completely wrong, exhaust manifold still difficult to get at and getting around the gear linkages, alternator and AC mountings would be major exercise.
Lengthwise there is barely enough room to fit the engine behind the radiator

I had a chat with Paul Redding OKA 098 which has had a Perkins 6 installed for years and he confirmed that it is a tight fit and has major changes to the engine mountings and ancillaries

Seems that the 5.9 Cummins actually drops in more easily
Rick

Rick Whitworth: OKA XT 149.
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15 May 2013 14:57 #11 by DarrenWebster303
DarrenWebster303 replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT
Hi guys, the Duramaxes are rated at 365hp for the model Hal and I have, although both have been improved with tune and 4in exhaust etc.

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15 May 2013 20:01 #12 by Peter and Sandra OKA 374
Peter and Sandra OKA 374 replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT
Darren we're currently in the US touring and the tow vehicle of choice by a huge number is a Diesel Dodge Ram as the 6.7 l straight six can easily outperform a Duramax.

OKA 374 LT Van, converted to camper/motorhome,
400ah Lithiums, 680w solar, diesel cooking heating and HWS,
Cummins 6BT, Allison 6 speed auto, Nissan transfer.

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15 May 2013 20:18 #13 by Outback Jack
Outback Jack replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT
Hey Pete,

Can you bring back 3 or 4 Cummins in your suit case???

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16 May 2013 04:21 #14 by Peter and Sandra OKA 374
Peter and Sandra OKA 374 replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT
Ha ha, no room, my wife is a quilter so plenty of fabric though.
The problem is finding an engine near our route, personally I think you would be better to buy a whole donor vehicle especially if you are after alater common rail engine
Then just stick the whole drivetrain in the Oka, I think the Dodge Ram's are RH drop.

OKA 374 LT Van, converted to camper/motorhome,
400ah Lithiums, 680w solar, diesel cooking heating and HWS,
Cummins 6BT, Allison 6 speed auto, Nissan transfer.

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16 May 2013 06:06 #15 by TH
TH replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT
Spent all day in #234 yesterday. Overtook 2 caravans (1 on a hill). Didn't change down on any hills. Slowest I got to on hill climbing was 84kph on the GPS. Sat on 105 comfortably. It is better/nicer/quicker to drive than our 24v turbo 80 series.

I don't think I will be considering a cummins for a while. :)

Not sure what other differences there are between the 110 and the 135 phaser other than fuel pump and wastegated turbo but surely this must be the cheapest and easiest option for more loud pedal

Cheers, Tony

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16 May 2013 08:28 - 16 May 2013 08:41 #16 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT

TH wrote: Not sure what other differences there are between the 110 and the 135 phaser other than fuel pump and wastegated turbo but surely this must be the cheapest and easiest option for more loud pedal


Really interesting Tony,
My Phaser 110 is full reco done by Perkins agent in Bendigo two years ago just before the OKA engine transplants started.
Effectively brand new, stock standard, great engine
I have wondered about waste gated turbo and intercooler option
Keen on upgrading using time tested standard engineered solution rather than experimenting with home grown add ons if possible

Quoted increase of 25hp is 23% increase and if this does translate to a general 23% increase in performance it would bring the Perkins 4 over the line for me.

Would really like to get good look at differences on your 135 and experience performance but we are a long way from Mingenew!
Rick
Geelong

Rick Whitworth: OKA XT 149.
Last Edit: 16 May 2013 08:41 by Rick Whitworth.

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16 May 2013 10:19 - 16 May 2013 12:14 #17 by PeteFox
PeteFox replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT

Rick Whitworth wrote: Engine mountings are completely wrong, exhaust manifold still difficult to get at and getting around the gear linkages, alternator and AC mountings would be major exercise.
Lengthwise there is barely enough room to fit the engine behind the radiator


Rick
the engine mountings are completely wrong, only if you choose to try to use the mountings supplied with the 'new' engine (if any). These two photos show the same 4 bolt holes (circled) in the same relative position as in the Oka. It is simply a matter of using the Oka mounts and fitting to the chassis rails with new captive nuts in a new forward position. Likewise the alternator and A/C mounts can be moved from the Oka onto the new engine.

The fan, harmonic balance etc can come over to the new engine






As for the length, if you are talking about an XT then there will be difficulties with either engine as they are both the same approx length and the XT radiator is set well back as compared to an LT which is right at the front.

The main thing is to get an engine with the turbo setup as shown in the photo as some are mounted high or at the rear of the engine. Obviously the dump pipe would need to be rotated down.

Having said that, a Cummins once fitted may be easier to work on. Removing the manifolds and turbo on Perkins is a major PITA. Paul Nott told be that he can remove and replace a Cummins turbo sitting in the driver's seat in an hour or two.
Paul's installation looks like it is meant to be there, something Oka should have done at the start.

If I were doing this I think I would still be looking hard at the Perkins, I suppose the six cyl ones have the inbuilt automatic rust preventative system directed at the front axle :-)

Pete Fox OKA266 MultiCab
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www.byles.net/www.oka4wd.com/forum/membe...oka-266?limitstart=0
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Last Edit: 16 May 2013 12:14 by PeteFox.

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16 May 2013 11:11 #18 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT
Peter,
that is correct. Engine mountings need to be shifted for Perkins wheras with the Cummins, although they need to be modified they line up with original position on chassis.
The main issue I could see was at the front of the engine where the width of the manifold, alternator and AC effect the XT gear linkages.

Rick

Rick Whitworth: OKA XT 149.

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16 May 2013 14:57 #19 by DarrenWebster303
DarrenWebster303 replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT
Hi Peter,

Yes, you're right about buying a complete front cut for an engine conversion. It is much easier when you have everything where it should be to start with. The reason that I like the Duramax is that it doesn't have the extra two cylinders hanging out the front, like the in-line does. Any one of the late-model engines would, I'm sure of it, deliver ample performance for anyone's re-power needs.

Nice to be in the US at the moment, I would imagine. It's a bit cold and wet here in Melbourne!

Darren

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16 May 2013 21:05 #20 by Joseph Baz
Joseph Baz replied the topic: Wanted info on Cummins 6BT
Hi all,
Sorry guys,I don't think that you can really compare any Perkins to the newer generation Common rail engines,there is a lot of miscomcemptions about electronic controlled engines and the reality is that a Duramax or a Cummins ISB will run over 700k to a million kms,you can choose the model engine that you want, pre EGR or after,not all newer engines need AD blue,apart from the european no one uses the Urea injection,personally I will rather choose an engine with the AD blue as I have seen the amount of crap that is been directed back into the engine with the EGR,getting a front cut will definetely make life easier and for those who like a one cable engine,in my opinion you can't go past the 6BT,just don't get a number 53 casting block(maily Mexican castings)and if you go from 08 to mid 10 be aware of the killer dowell pin.
Cheers,Joe

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